Liminal Living

When a pastor has experienced both the beauty of a spiritual community, and the hurt and abuse of demands for excellence for nearly 26 years, it is a confusing place to occupy. Jason Raitz and I have been friends for nearly 30 years, walking with each other through the highs and lows of our lives. We have landed in very different places; geographically, socially, theologically. But our lives continue to intersect and enrich each other. Today we have an honest conversation about the liminal space he is in, wondering what role the church plays in his life, and the world. We leave it unresolved, because that is liminal space, and that is reality for most of life. You can connect with Jason’s work here: https://www.speakwithpeople.com/ Time Stamps for the episode: 03:10 30 years of friendship 06:42 My “conversion” story, and Jason’s role in it 11:18 A decision to be a pastor, at age 20 15:34 First call to a church, at 20 years old 20:53 Crashing the Ego in a field 25:55 The Pressure of Excellence 30:48 Gen

Dr Emily Smith is a PhD epidemiologist whose work has been featured in TIME Magazine, Christianity Today, the Washington Post, and NPR. Dr Emily’s profession as an epidemiologist was a natural way to express her Christian values for loving her neighbor. So when the pandemic hit, she was in a unique spot to rally the church together to love their neighbor as the Good Samaritan taught, or so she thought. Expressing her expertise online made her a target, even from her own church members, whom her husband was pastor of. After threats to her children were made, she broke down with debilitating and chronic migraines for 15 months, spending 6 months in bed. When she was well enough, she wrote of her experiences in a published book entitled, The Science of the Good Samaritan. We have an honest conversation about her journey through this time, and her book. You can connect with Dr Emily’s work at https://emilysmith.substack.com You can purchase her book at https://rb.gy/94v8jh Time Stamps for the episode: 03:08 Scie

S3 E1: Alana Levandoski: The Longing is Home Welcome to season 3 of the Liminal Living podcast. And today we talk with spiritual teacher, artist, and musician, Alana Levandoski. Alana has gone on pilgrimages and come back to alchemize her experiences into music. Her perspective is large and her wisdom is deep. On today’s episode we talk about the importance of longing within the human soul, and how we embody that longing. Our conversation is broad and deep so buckle up. You can connect with Alana’s work at alanalevandoski.com Time Stamps for the episode: 02:34 Pilgrimage and place 07:21 Finding and reclaiming your roots 12:41 Find your people 18:45 Pilgrimage through time in the place you stand 23:13 Healing your soul is changing the world 28:01 Developing a “Christ Consciousness” 33:18 You can’t think your way out of trauma 37:38 A passing age gives birth to another 41:19 Feminine wisdom birth’s Christ into the world 46:49 Escaping the cerebral age without destroying it 49:47 Theologian as Artist

We made it to the end of the year! So to celebrate I revisited our top three most downloaded episodes*, as well as read some of your comments on your favorite moments. Thank you for listening and contributing to the conversation. Here is to a great season 3! *after recording this, Dr Chris Green’s episode released and became the #1 downloaded episode of the season. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:00 Intro 07:55 #3 most downloaded: Kenneth Tanner 14:40 #2 most downloaded: Rob Bell 21:25 #1 most downloaded: Matt Tebbe 27:46 Joe: Don’t Spiritualize Your Problems 35:20 Terri: Consolation and Desolation 41:43 Collette: Universal Redemption 46:27 Abigail: Kate’s Courage 52:14 Scott: Liminal seasons of new life 58:03 Dave: “The Bible Says” 1:03:51 Rosie: Frames and Reality 1:10:35 David: Rob Bell’s laugh 1:14:13 Conclusion All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ 

S2 E35: Dr Chris Green: Dead Answers vs Living Questions Too often theology becomes more about trophy hunting for the “right” answers in order to impress and display. But trophies are dead things. Dr. Chris Green and I talk about the role of art and imagination in the theological process of finding living questions, which are small answers that lead to more questions and explorations. Dr. Chris Green is Professor of Public Theology at Southeastern University, the Bishop of the Diocese of St Anthony, and Director for St Anthony Institute of Theology, Philosophy, and Liturgics. He is the author and editor of a number of books, articles, and reviews, including most recently All Things Beautiful: An Aesthetic Christology. He and his wife, Julie, live in Cleveland, TN with their sons Clive and Emery, and their Weimaraner, Auggie. Their oldest, Zoë, is currently attending the University of Oklahoma. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:35 Intro 04:19 Theology and Art 08:25 Where does art come from? 13:46 What does a

God became a human being, the incarnation, a central dogma of the Christian tradition that I was not taught in my Evangelical tradition. Well it was a messy necessity for Chgrist to be human so that the “real” dogma of substitutionary atonement was valid. Father Kenny and I dive into this concept in all its beauty today on what it means that God became human. Father Kenneth Tanner is pastor of Holy Redeemer in Rochester Hills Michigan, writer at Sojourners, Patheos, and Substack, author of an upcoming book called Vulnerable God: Retrieving the Wonder of God-With-Us in Our Humanity, teacher, and wonderful human being. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:31 Intro 03:40 Handing me mystery instead of answers 08:30 Mystery leads to awe and wonder 12:40 A long painful call into ministry 17:48 Grief and anxiety in ministry 22:05 The soil Father Kenny grew out of 25:41 Two responses to the Challenger tragedy 29:42 The expansive idea of God becoming human 34:39 Incarnation IS revelation of God 40:09 God’s humility in Chri

S2 E34: Dr Thomas Jay Oord: God is not Omnipotent, and that is Good news. “Can God microwave a burrito so hot that even he can’t eat it?” -Homer Simpson. All joking aside, today I talk to Dr Thomas Jay Oord about his new book, the Death of Omnipotence, the Birth of Amipotence. This book provides a critique of the classic doctrine of Omnipotence, and why it is good news that God is NOT all powerful. Dr Oord is an award-winning author, and he has written or edited more than thirty books. Oord directs a doctoral program at Northwind Theological Seminary and the Center for Open and Relational Theology. He won the Outstanding Faculty Award twelve times as a full-time professor He also speaks at institutions across the globe. Most recently at Theology Beer Camp with Tripp Fuller. He also runs the Ort Shorts podcast and has been featured on over 50 podcasts. Dr. Oord is known for his contributions to open and relational theology, science and religion, and freedom and relationships for transformation. He and his wife

Have you ever learned a new perspective, started a new diet, or become really religious, and then get on a mission to convert everyone in your path to this new thing… only to leave it behind at some point and wonder what’s real? Me too. It leaves you feeling guilty for being “wrong” or feeling shamed for convincing so many people of something you are not so sure of anymore. What do we do with this part of our history, and how can we hold our current convictions with both confidence and humility? In this episode I share some thoughts I have learned along the way of having conversations with wonderful folks on this podcast. I also offer some perspective on passages of scripture like the widow’s two mites, and the parable of the talents. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:43 Mental Furniture 05:45 Convert, Convince, Convict 11:14 Frames and how we hold them 16:13 Learning from perspectives not my own 21:52 Naming your frames to hold them non-violently 27:48 The Parable of the Talents 33:33 Parable of the Whi

S2 E32: Scot McKnight: Revelation, End Times, and Christian Nationalism Today I talk with Scot McKnight, he's the professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary, a history buff of early Christianity, a theology nerd, and a prolific author of almost 40 published books and academic articles. He's delved deep into topics like the historical Jesus, early Christianity, and how to live the Christian life. McKnight is ordained in the Anglican tradition and is theological advisor to Todd Hunter. Today we explore his most recent book, Revelation for the Rest of Us. We delve into his history in fundamentalism, conversion to Anglicanism, theological explorations, the Book of Revelation, political leanings, and more. It is a conversation to stretch your mind beyond the borders of standard American theology of the “End Times.” You can find Scot’s blog here: https://scotmcknight.substack.com/ You can find Scot’s books here: https://rb.gy/xl32he Time Stamps for the episode: 03:32 Introductions 07:14 Roots and Soil Scot g

Today on the podcast I have the wonderful privilege of talking with Rob Bell about his new book, Where'd You Park Your Spaceship? We meander in conversation from topics like grief, surfing, death, life, resurrection, hope, dreams, and as the title suggests, a little bit of everything. You can find Rob's work here: www.Robbell.com Time Stamps for this episode: 1:58 Introductions 5:38 Graduating into new seasons of life 10:08 Saying "yes" to life and befriending death 16:23 Intellectual frames don't define reality 22:32 The accumulation of un-grieved grief 27:57 Learning to be human again through grief 34:14 Accepting mortality brings resurrection 41:27 Identity working itself out in writing 47:55 Two halves of Life in narrative 53:59 Heaven and Hell and Reality 1:00:15 En-fleshing ideas in humanity 1:06:38 "The News" and finding hope 1:12:38 We create the world we inhabit, we can uncreate it 1:18:04 Conclusion All music in this episode is provided by Axeltree . https://liminalliving.simplec

Today on the podcast I talk with prolific author and chief boat rocker, Keith Giles. We talk about his upbringing in the a fundamentalist Baptist Church, and his journey through deconstruction. You can find Keith's writings here: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/keithgiles/ and here: https://www.bk2sq1.com/ and here: https://rb.gy/9yjeod all music in this episode provided by axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ 

What happens when the church space you helped create and cultivate is not hospitable and inclusive of those in your own family with neurodivergent minds? Deb Gregory shares her story of traversing liminal spaces from her childhood into her professional career and how Ignatian spiritual practices have helped “moor” her to her faith and family. Deb is a spiritual director, former documentary filmmaker and church planter, and the founder of Flourish Contemplative Center. She is also the producer and host of the Betwixt Podcast. Having spent much of her life in transit, Deb enjoys the slow growth of roots with her family in Ormond Beach, FL. Where she enjoys listening with you: Flourish Spiritual Direction Where you can enjoy listening with her: Betwixt Podcast Time Stamps for the episode: 00:48 Introductions 02:50 What is Liminal Space Anyways? 06:37 Living in two worlds, belonging to neither 11:35 Where is home? 14:25 Faith roots, paradoxes, and contradictions 18:49 Lack of common spaces to hold paradox 22:08 D

A pastor who had 12 victims over the course of 20 years is found out. The patriarchal leadership of the church wants to sweep it all under the rug quickly. But *Kate, who happens to be married to this pastor, says “No!” She is not allowed to lead in this culture in spite of being the greatest leader in the room with the best plan, so she decides to take matters into her own hands. This is her story of trauma, tragedy, reconciliation, and healing. *Kate is not her real name, but a pseudonym to protect her from ongoing abusive actions of former church leaders and former husband. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:48 Introductions 02:30 Breckie in Australia with a Cuppa 03:58 Protecting her Anonymity 06:29 Inoculation makes you blind to abuse 11:14 Rebuilding the soul after recognizing abuse 15:36 The Truth comes out 20:32 Seeking to hold him accountable 25:48 Abusive patriarchy favors the abusive man 30:14 Reconciliation begins… but not with him 34:49 Rebuilding a life 37:17 Learning self-care and boundaries after

Have you ever had someone use the phrase, “Well, the Bible says…” to correct you? But then they dismiss other things the Bible says with a “yeah, but…” Who we offer our “yeah but” comments to and who we hard line with “the Bible says” reveals more about the one using the phrase than it does the Bible. Today I talk about why I no longer use the phrase, “The Bible says…” and how it is often a signal of a theology that is static, exclusive, elitist, or abusive. This summarizes some of the things I learned from the last 4 interviews I did. To get there we meander through the historical narrative flow of the old and new testaments. So if you have ever struggled to make sense of what the Bible is saying, and why, it might help to understand the story. Time Stamps for the Episode: Time Stamps for the episode: 00:40 Introductions 01:54 I Don’t say, “The Bible Says” anymore 05:38 The Tabernacle Narrative 09:31 Kings and Temples Narrative 12:19 Babylon, Persia, and Greece! Oh My! 16:29 Rome, Herod, and Second Tem

Who gets to decide the modern dogmas of who is in and who is out? Probably not the people Jesus would hang around with, marginalized communities. I have an honest and beautiful conversation with author Kathy Khang today about her experience as a Christian in America who immigrated from Korea. And she highlights things from that perspective that I had a hard time seeing from my perspective. Our guest today is Kathy Khang, a mother of three, wife of one, and a passionate advocate for embracing the complexities of identity, spirituality, and social justice. Kathy's story is one of transformation and empowerment, rooted in her love for Jesus and a deep appreciation for the simple joys of life, like yoga, nail polish, lipstick, and the bond she shares with her girlfriends. Kathy's journey as a writer, speaker, coffee enthusiast, and even a yoga teacher has taken her from the pages of childhood diaries to newsrooms and co-authored books. Her next book co-authored with Matt Mikalatos is called Loving Disagreement wh

Does God have a Gender? Is Karma real? What did the Bible say about Dinosaurs? And other fun questions in this ask me anything episode where I take on your theological questions: Scott: According to Christianity, the only way is through Jesus. According to another religion, the only way is through their belief system. How can we all be right? Does God give many paths that lead to him? Lance: How do we know which religion is right? And if Christianity is it, how do we know which version/interpretation is right? Rosey: If God created humans in his image, male and female, what does that actually mean? Is God not genderless? Wendi: What’s the deal with karma and the Christian faith? Nic: did the Creator create us individually or broad stroke? What level of detail went into His design? Lance: How does the Bible coexist with science? Time Stamps for the episode: 00:49 Introductions 05:48 The Benedictine Monk who taught me to meditate 11:10 Are there many paths to God? 16:23 Labels on something vs Essence of somet

Why have we spiritualized so much of Jesus’ teaching on poverty, money, and forgiveness? It is the only way we could make sense of his teachings while wearing the insulation that power provides us. But what does Christ say about money and power? How have we harnessed what Jesus calls the god of mammon into our methodologies of modern church growth tactics? Today I talk with Matt Tebbe, an expert voice in the areas concerning mammon, which is the Bible’s word for the worship of the economy, colonial empire, authoritarian abuse, and patriarchy. Matt says hard things, but good things. His voice is honest and succinct. Matt Tebbe. holds a Masters of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, has been featured in the pages of Leadership Journal and Shattered Magazine. Matt's insights are also featured in the book 'What Pastors Wish Their Congregations Knew,' authored by Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee. He's also been a prominent voice in thought-provoking platforms such as Missio Alliance and The V3 Movem

What if the severe dogmatic cruelty of our modern expression of faith is an add on of Western Colonialism? What would happen if you started to pull on the thread of colonialism in your faith. What would come out? What would remain? Today I talk with Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley, an expert voice in the areas concerning spirituality, earth-care, racial and ethnic identity, diversity, peace, social justice, eco-justice, interreligious dialogue, Indigenous studies, agriculture, and spirituality. Randy is also co-founder and Program Director of the George Fox Master of Arts Intercultural Studies degree, the Eloheh Indigenous Center for Earth Justice and Eloheh Farm & Seeds. Author of 9 books, including An Indigenous theology and the Western Worldview, and host of the Peacing it all together podcast. He is a member of the Cherokee nation, and considers himself an indigenous person who follows Christ. We talk about his experiences as an indigenous person within the western church.To see Randy’s work, please visit his

Today I talk with Faith rooted organizer, Anthony Smith. Anthony headed up the removal and relocation of a Confederate Statue in his city of Salisbury, North Carolina. We talk about his faith, his work, for the poor and marginalized of his city from his position as a pastor and city council member. He is a man rooted in place and dedicated to seeing the Kingdom of God come about in his neighborhood. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:49 Introductions 02:39 Faith Rooted Organizer 07:04 Anthony vs Confederate Statue 11:56 An Ecumenical Exorcism of White Nationalism and Racism 17:10 An Apocalyptic moment and call 22:24 Christians call to apocalyptic action 27:15 Hyper individualism and its damage on society 33:33 The Gospel and White Jesus made an atheist 38:37 The Gospel evolve to meet us 43:50 White Christian Nationalism is a form of bad Atheism 47:53 Christianity as ideology for the nation state is bad news 52:15 A Heart attack and an existential crisis 57:35 The Sound of the Genuine 1:02:22

S2 E21: Tom Rundel: Ask Me Anything: Bible Deconstruction I solo riff on today’s pod and take on some more of the questions that y’all sent in as we talk about our approach to the Bible, how it has caused harm, and how we can change it going forward. The questions I take on are… Erica: Is the Bible meant to be read as a set-in-stone manual to be taken literally? Is it multiple genres, full of allegory? If literal, how are readers meant to adapt it to modern life? Jason: “If the Bible says all commandments boil down to love God and love neighbor as yourself why do churches seem to be focused more on do's and don’ts?” Jason: “Is hell real and does it matter?” Lance: What happens to people who never knew/heard about God when they die? Would a loving God punish someone for not accepting a truth they knew? What about babies/young children? Time Stamps for the episode: 00:41 Introduction 02:53 The Metaphysics of Elisha 06:43 Evangelicals and Conspiracy Theories 12:22 Left Behind was a Conspiracy Theory, not a t