Let Us Reason - A Christian/muslim Dialogue

Al and Jay ask the question; does any of the empires surrounding Mecca ever heard of it or had any trade reference to Mecca? The answer is none, no surrounding empires; for example the Sabean, the Nabatean, the Assyrian, the Babylonian or even the Romans ever referenced Mecca.  They also discuss some of the five stages of the Haj all of which involve stones:  1. The Ka'ba(cube), 2. Al Safa and Marwah (the S.I.N say that they are two mountains). 3.  The Jamarat . They discuss if these rituals are purely Islamic or were they borrowed from Judaism. The discussion will resume next time.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay continue the discussion from last time about the Red Sea route through Mecca .  Dr Patricia Crone debunked the land route theory and said that the route was through the Eastern side of the Red Sea coast. But history proves that the ships in the 2nd and 3rd century BC took the west coast of the red sea because of the five coastal cities that existed on the coast of Eretria, Sudan And Egypt. Also History shows that Jeddah was provided as a sea port to provide water for Mecca  and both cities did not exist until the 8th century AD.   Without Mecca there is no seventh century Islam( S.I.N.).  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith  say that Mohammad received a revelation to change the direction of the qiblas from Jerusalem to Al Masjed Al Haram (Al Kaaba) in the year 624 AD.  They use Dan Gibson's research and conclude that the direction of the Qiblas in mosques between 624-706 AD were facing Petra.- The first mosque with the qibla facing Mecca was in 724 AD. This is a bad evidence for the S.I.N.  They also discuss the trade route theory by Dr Montgomery Watt who suggested the trade route  went  through Mecca to Gaza . He was trying to prove that Mecca was on the trade route. Dr Patricia Crone tried to prove that Mecca was never on the trade route which went through the red sea closer to the African coast and not the Arabian coast.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

According to the standard Islamic narrative ; 70-300 prophets are buried in Mecca, from Adam,  Seth, Noah, Daniel, also Eve, and the Queen of Shiba just to name a few.  There is no archeological evidence of that. In the second episode of this show Al and Dr Jay ask the question, where is Mecca on any of the ancient maps? Dr Jay talks about the research of Dr Patricia Crone  on the subject of Mecca in ancient maps. They conclude that there is no mention of Mecca until the 8th century; a 100 years after the death of Mohammad.  Mecca was not the place the S.I.N. wants us to believe.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay continue their discussion about Mecca. This time they discuss Dan Gibson's archeological studies and the two books he wrote; The Nabateans, and The Geography of the Quran.    Next they ask the question ; What language was used in Mecca? They conclude that the Quran was written in Nabatean Aramaic and not in the Sabiac language of Mecca and Medina .  The question is why wasn't it written in the language of the area ( the Hijaz)?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr. Jay talk about why Mecca in the S.I.N. To Muslims Mecca is the birth place of Mohammad, where Islam started, where the pilgrimage takes place , and where they face towards when they pray.  Muslims claim three things: 1. It was where Adam and Eve lived. 2. Where Abraham built the Kaaba with his son Ishmael. 3. That Mecca was a center of trade. Al Fadi and Dr. Jay also say that the only place that mecca was mentioned by name was on Sura 48: 24.  Tradition also says that it was a place of vegetation and that it was located in a valley with a stream going through it.  Does history support these claims? they will talk about it in coming episodes.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr. Jay and Al Fadi continue their critique of the Standard Islamic Narrative(S.I.N.).  Today they are talking about the lack of reference evidence and of eyewitness. They point out that the S.I.N says that everything happened in Mecca and Medina.  It turned out that  the earliest resources were 200-300 years later during the Abbasid caliphate which came to power in 750 AD, in the city of Baghdad, written by people who lived hundred of miles north of Mecca and Medina. For example Ibn Hisham born in Basra, Iraq and lived in Cairo, Egypt;  Bukhari was born in Bukhara (Uzbekistan).  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay compare the time between Mohammad's death and the time the sources of Islam (the Sira, Hadith etc.) were written is over two hundred years and 200-300 miles north from the place that was thought.  While the time it took the Christian to write their sources is about 60 years and it was written in the same place where Christ lived and died while eyewitnesses lived.  They say if we compare it to the history of the United states, the biography of George Washington and the constitution would of not been written until the 21 century.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr. Jay continue to discuss the problem with the sources(Sira, hadith,...). They are questioning the Standard Islamic Narrative(S.I.N.).  They ask the question how do we know that it is true? Going back to the time when the people who wrote the sources lived and died ; they find a gap in the timeline. For example, there is a 200 year gap between the death of Mohammad and the death of Ibn Hisham; who wrote the Sira(Biography) of Mohammad; therefore he was not an eyewitness.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr. Jay Smith continue  their discussion by talking about the man (Mohammad), the book ( the Quran) and the place(Mecca), because these are the foundations of Islam if you take one out the rest will fall. 1. Mecca; did it exist in the 7th century?  2. Mohammad; was there a man who was born in Mecca in 570 AD and lived there until 622AD, who then moved to Medina?  3. The Quran; do we have a complete copy from the 7th century that matches today's copy.  These are questions Dr. Jay and Al Fadi are trying to answer. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith discuss what is The Standard Islamic Narrative or S.I.N.  Muslims believe that they have the final revelation; the Quran which was revealed to Mohammad, who was born in Mecca in Saudi Arabia and that Mecca was the direction of the Kiblah.  There are four points of the S.I.N./ the traditions: 1. The Cira (The biography of Mohammad) . 2. The Hadith (the sayings of Mohammad)  3. Al Tafsir (the commentaries) to unpack the Quran, 4. The Tarikh(the history).  Muslims can not question the traditions even if does not make sense.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sister Ray grew up in South Africa to an Iranian Sunni family. Her mother was a Catholic that converted to Islam.  She went to an all girls Catholic school, and was also raised in the traditional Islamic belief.  She did start questioning her Islamic belief when she went to university and started reading Islamic books in English.  She was upset about the way women are treated in Islam, unlike what she has been taught that Islam raised the value of women.  She met a born again Christian in college and he invited her to go to church.  The sermon was about Moses.  She was asked by her Muslim people not to watch the Disney movie "The Prince of Egypt". Ray's journey continues next time.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lloyd explains that Islam is a deen, which does not mean a religion but a totalitarian political system, which provides perspective on existence, life, society and sociopolitical system. There is 4 meanings of deen: 1. Subjugation and dominance.  2. Obedience and bondage. 3. Rules and regulations. 4. Rewards and repayment.  There are two sources of the law(Sharia). A. The Quran . B. The Sunna.  Lloyd goes into details to explain all of the above.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

 Muslim believe that Islam is the final religion and Christianity has been replaced.  No other religion is accepted but Islam.  Therefore there is enmity between Muslims and Christians and Jews.  Those who die in Jihad and those who hide their true feelings towards non Muslims will die as martyrs.  Two purposes of Islam: 1. Seek to correct the Bible( Jesus was not crucified, sura 4:157).  2. Political purpose; commanding the right and forbidding the wrong; enforcing sharia on everybody.  Islam is a religion of law; what are its laws ?and where are they written?  There are volumes of books concerning every aspect of life to explain for example what to do if a man marry a minor and injure her physically.  It is detailed and disturbing because Islam allows having sexual intercourse with minors and children before the age of puppetry even with infants.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Lloyd discuss what sharia law really is; a law or a secret.  Sharia is both religious and political . Muslims are not suppose to teach it to non- Muslims because non- muslins will be learning it in bad faith, therefore it is  secret with a purpose.  It is the final interpretation of the Quran and Sunna.  It copied and changed the Babylonian Talmud.  The end goal of Islam is the will of Allah by persuasion or force. Lloyd refers to lots of sources one of them is :"The Islamic Talmud" by Judith Wagner.  He adds that the Quran is not complete by itself ; it needs the Sunna and the law.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al and Mel continue to discuss the critique of The Dome of the Rock.  They say that there is multiple accounts of who and when the dome was built, which indicate that the building underwent multiple stages of rebuilding due to the fact of multiple earthquakes (ie1015, 1033AD) happened during its lifetime .  To assume that the building was damaged but not the inscription is unreal.  Also the number of columns changed from 8 inner and 24 outer to 12 inner and 16 outer columns.  These are some of the reasons for a later date of the building and inscription according to AJ Duse.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al and Mel discuss the time of the inside inscription on the building of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.  Their discussion is built on the article; "The Jewish Serpent King in the Dome of the Rock" by AJ Deus.  AJ says that the inscription on the inside of that building is not 7th century inscription but rather sixteenth century.  They point out that the crusaders were in control of Jerusalem for two centuries (11th and 12th), and that they held Christian services inside the Dome. It is very unlikely that the pope will leave a memorial for Mohammad there. All this is a strong case for a later date.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Rob Christian discuss some suras in the Quran that talk about Christ divinity and what Muslims call scientific miracles in the Quran.  Sura 9:31, it talks about Jews and Christians taking their monks and rabbis as gods beside Allah and the Messiah.  This implies unification since Jesus was not included in the monks and rabbis but with Allah.  Sura 43:61 says that Jesus knows the last hour. This implies he is all knowing.  In sura 86:7 shows that Allah does not know the correct anatomy of the human body. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

One of the claims that Muslims accuse Christian and Jews of is that the Bible has been corrupted.  Al Fadi and Rob Christian say that no where in the Quran or Hadith say that; Sura 115, 5:47;10:94,61:6, are some of the suras that confirm that the Bible is the word of God and was not corrupted.  The reason why they say that it was corrupted because they can not find the name of Muhammad (Ahmed) in the Bible. The accusation started by a famous scholar  in Spain in the tenth century.  Also in the 19th century the Arabic translation of the Bible was completed and they can read and not find the name Ahmed in there. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Rob Christian discuss 1. What Ibn Abbas, Mohammad's cousin, and the father of commentators said, A. About the Quran and poetry, he said : " If Part of the Quran is missing or lost; just complete it with your own personal poetry".  B. Ibn Abbas also said about Sura 13:31, that the scribe made a mistake in two words because he was sleepy.  they ask the question;  How does Allah allow a sleepy scribe to corrupt the Quran?  2. They point out that the Quran was tampered with by early Muslims , and no Muslim should accept his Quran as divine. They discuss Sura 56:29 and 37:12. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.