Listen, Learn & Love Hosted By Richard Ostler

My friend Thomas Swain joins us from New Zealand to share his story. Thomas (who grew up in England) starts with knowing at an early age he had feelings for someone of the same gender but put that away and moved forward. Thomas talks about his wonderful mission experience (West Indies 2006-2008), teaching at the New Zealand MTC for 5 years and working for church media productions. These were deeply spiritual times for Thomas which also allowed him to put this attract to men on the shelf. After the MTC assignment, Thomas talks about the 10+ years working to marry a woman and how all those relationships ended. That filled Thomas with the pain of not being able to fall in love and move to his next step as a Latter-day Saint and also knowing he left behind women thinking the breakup might have been their fault. That led Thomas to some of his darkest days with feelings of suicidal ideation. Concurrent with not being able to fall in love with a women, Thomas did many things to serve in our Church includin

My friend Aubrey Dabel joins us to share bravely share her story hopes others do not feel alone. Aubrey starts her story in High School (Southern Oregon) realizing she is attracted to girls and unexpectedly falling in love. That led Aubrey to a lot of shame and self-loathing. Aubrey talks turning to her Heavenly Father and Temple attendance to find peace and hope. She also talks about her supportive parents. Aubrey talks about her mission—both positive and some negative experiences. Aubrey is pleased with her service and feels love and support from her mission family. Aubrey talks about balancing her relationship with the Church and honoring her sexuality. She talks about people that have been helpful in her life sitting with her and validating the complexity of her path forward. Aubrey talks about her hopes and the importance of being vulnerable. She concludes the podcast with her powerful testimony. Thank you for being on the podcast Aubrey. You are brave. You are courageous. Your

My friend Sarah Carter (active LDS, mother of three, Masters of Social Work) shares her journey growing up with abuse and trauma—and her story of not fitting the mold of a typical LDS youth. Sarah talks about how that abuse and trauma was tied to her three marriages that ended. After those marriages, Sarah looked inward with new clarity about the work she needed to do to heal and overcome over 20 years of trauma. Sarah knew that with good therapy, hard work and the Savior, she could break the cycle of trauma. Sarah also talks about her wonderful younger brother Daniel who died by suicide in 2014 at the age of 28. It is a tribute to him and his good heart—and turning to unhelpful coping mechanisms to deal with the pain and reality of his life. Sarah is now a LCSW and runs her own practice (see the show notes). Because of her own personal story, academic training, and clinical work, Sarah is able to help others. If you are in a tough spot and looking for hope, Sarah’s story will help you. Thank

My friend Julie Cluff joins us from her home in Tennessee to share the story of being the driver of the vehicle, when she fell asleep, resulting in a rollover car accident that claimed the lives of her 10-year-old daughter Carrie and her 8-year-old son David. The accident happened on Mother’s Day in 2007. It is a parent’s worst nightmare. Julie bravely shares her story of grief/darkness and then her path to find peace and hope. It is a powerful story. Julie talks about the book she wrote in 2020 called “Miracles in the Darkness: Building a Life after Loss”, her work as a grief coach and trainer, and podcaster. If you are in grief¸ Julie’s podcast will help you. She talks about therapy, Jesus, her husband, friends, and the work she did personally to find hope and peace after unimaginable loss. And you might feel impressed to read her book and/or become a grief coach to help others. Thank you, Julie, for being on the podcast and your needed work in our community and beyond. Podcast links:

My friend Stephen Monsen (Richfield Utah native, Wichita Kansas RM) joins us to bravely share his story. Stephen divides his story into four parts: The early years: Figuring out at age 17 he is gay and the immense shame he felt about his attractions. College freshman year: Intense loneliness, depression, some self-harm and coming out to this Bishop (good experience). Stephen talks about how his second semester was much better and turning in his mission papers. Mission: Stephen talks about his mission experience including serving others, companion experiences, improving his relationship with Heavenly Father, and coming out to his Mission President (good experience). He also talks about how the mission helped him accept being gay. Post Mission: Coming out to family (good experience), working with Heavenly Father to figure out his future, what he would know say to his 17-year-old self. I was deeply moved listening to Stephen and his deep maturity, his courage, and his desire to help ot

** Trigger Warning: This podcast talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988 ** My friends Dave and Kimi Martin join us to talk about their transgender son Levi who died of suicide in December of 2022 at the age of 17. Dave and Kimi (active LDS, Parents of 7, Live in Massachusetts) share their story of the journey to understand and then support their son. They do this to honor Levi and also to invite us to do better. They talk about their bright, intelligent son Levi—and their joint efforts to understand the cause of his emotional challenges which was finally understood to be being transgender. Even with that understanding they talk about how Levi—turning 18—was “terrified of how society treats transgender persons.” The Martins talk about the principle of “proximity” and the need to listen to and understand people different than how that helps us better love and support them. They talk about the heartache of losing a child, hopes on how we can do better to support queer

My friend McKenna Goodrich joins us via Zoom from her home in Georgia to bravely share her story in hopes of helping others. McKenna talks about coming out to herself knowing she was different and then coming out to others. McKenna talks her personal relationship with Jesus and love from her Heavenly Father that is helping her on her journey. McKenna (whose Mom Alicia Hall was on Episode 596) talks about the experiences that led her to understand she is lesbian how that, along with being a beloved daughter of God, is part of her identity—both being good things. McKenna talks about her patriarchal blessing, why she is a member of the Church, why she hopes to serve and mission, and her hopes for the future. McKenna is a member of Gen Z of which 19.7% identify as LGBTQ (Gallup). Great episode for Y/W leaders to listen and then counsel together on how to support Y/W who are not straight/cis (including those who are not out). McKenna has great support from her Y/W leaders. Thank you, McKenna, f

My friend Emily Robinson Adams (married mother of three, appellate attorney) join us to talk about her new book called “Divine Quietness: Fining Meaning When Heaven is Silent”. In the book, Emily bravely shares her journey with prayers met with silence. She talks about why a loving God would not answer her prayers. Emily shares her experience—which occurred over a couple of years—to deconstruct and then reconstruct her belief in and relationship with God using a completely new framework. She talks about the books, practices, analogies and perspectives that helps her reconstruct her relationship with God. I was deeply moved listening to Emily. If you are wondering if God is there and/or why your prayers do not feel like they are being answered, Emily’s book will help you. It is not just theory—it includes her own powerful and vulnerable story. Emily’s book will also help you better help others. Thank you, Emily, for writing this book and being on the podcast. Your voice is so needed in our

My friends Allison Dayton (founder of Lift and Love) and Ben Schilaty (co-host of Questions From The Closet and Author) join us to talk about a new LDS/LGBTQ event called “Gather: Christ-centered support for Latter-day Saint LGBTQ individuals and those who love them”. The conference is on Sept 15th and 16th, 2023 at Utah Valley Convention Center, Provo, Utah. Allison and Ben talk about why they (and others) decided to do the conference, who is invited, goals, logistics, speakers, and their personal hopes for the conference. I was deeply moved listening to Allison and Ben as they shared some of their story and the hopes for this conference. I encourage everyone to attend this conference and invite others. It will help you. And help all of us better create Zion. Podcast Links: Gather: https://gather-conference.com/ Lift and Love: https://www.liftandlove.org/ Questions From The Closet: https://questionsfromthecloset.com/ Ben Schilaty’s Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08PNM4GFC

My friend Mary Alice Hatch (married mother of 2) joins us from her home in San Clemente, California to share her story. Mary Alice talks about her son coming home from his mission early after receiving personal revelation it was the right thing to do. She talks about her support of her son and honoring his personal revelation and the need for our culture to do the same. This experience of seeing first-hand how the culture can be damaging for some Latter-day Saints, inspired Mary Alice to start a podcast call “What Now” which focused on how to improve the experience for Latter-day Saints. It is a powerful and needed podcast in our community. Mary Alice also talks about what her Relief Society Presidency is doing to create a safe culture for members to feel safe opening up about the realities of their lives so we can better heal and support others. She talks about how “people don’t connect to perfection but to vulnerability”. Mary Alice offers ideas on what we can do in our circle of influence to im

My friends Hunter Steele (Age 24, BYU Journalism Major, Kennewick Washington RM) and his mother Amie Steele (married mother of three) join us to share their story. Hunter starts with his story growing up in Nephi, Utah (student body president of his high school) trying to reconcile his sexual orientation in a very heteronormative environment. Hunter talks about his mission (good experience) and then returning home realizing he was still attracted to men. Hunter talks about doing all things “with God” in his journey which led him to come out to his therapist and parents (both good experiences). Hunter then talks about why he came out publicly. This is a powerful—Spirit led—story. Amie shares her story of Hunter coming out to her (she didn’t ever suspect he was gay) and he journey to love and support Hunter. She talks about relying to Christ, prayer ,and scripture study to navigate this road. They share coming out to extended family and friends and the support and love they are receiving. This

My friend Mitchell Harris (any/all) joins us to share their story as a pansexual non-binary Latter-day Saint. Mitchell is a committed Latter-day Saint, served a mission in Mexico City, and is a Math Education major at BYU. Mitchell talks about their early experience and realizing they are queer and their decision to come out in 2019. Mitchell talks about Transmedicalism (something new to me) and how some non-binary/trans people (like Mitchell) do not experience long-term gender dysphoria—yet are trans/non-binary. Mitchell also talks about Church doctrines that help them maintain faith in Christ and why they are a member of the Church. I learned so much from Mitchell. They helped me consider the things I can do in my circle of influence to improve the experience of queer members. The “Body of Christ” is strengthened by having people like Mitchell in it and their contributions. Thank you, Mitchell, for being on the podcast. Your story will help so many. You can find Mitchell on Twitter a

My friend Katherine Herrmann (divorced, father of 7) joins us to talk about her newly published book called “TransLucent: How I put off my natural man and found a spiritual woman” which is focused on her life experiences as an active Latter-day Saint. In the podcast, Katherine shares how she was compelled to write the book and why it’s important. The book explores a twofold journey of understanding her gender identity as a woman, but also as a daughter of God. Learning to overcome her natural man through social and medical transition, but more importantly with obedience, trusting God, following spiritual promptings, and always staying on the covenant path. The book covers her early years, marriage, family, and divorce. A mixture of experiences with Priesthood leadership. Her years giving hugs at General Conference. How she came to bear her testimony in over 40 wards in 3 years. Getting involved in BYU Women’s Conference and as a volunteer for Time Out For Women. Entering the LDS Singles scene attempting to

My friend Madi Davis (Age 19, BYU Student, Pre-Business) courageously shares her journey with pornography use that started at age 13. Madi (who is the first woman on our podcast talking about her own porn use) shares about how this came into her life and the immense shame she encountered, which was further magnified as this is framed as a male problem. She shares feeling as though she is the only one, and finally bravely talking to her Bishop and feeling the power of the atonement in her life. Madi talks about powerful principles and concepts that have helped her understand and solve her porn use—a framework that is much more effective than we have used in the past. Madi also talks about why she is talking about this, how she hopes her future husband will respond, and what she wishes her younger self understood. Madi is brave—bringing this important subject into the light where we can talk about it and work together to solve it. If you are a parent, local leader or working to solve porn use, Madi’s

My friend Paul Reeve (active Latter-day Saint, Simmons Chair of Mormon Studies at University of Utah, author, married father of six) joins us to talk about his new book (published by Deseret Book) called “Let’s Talk about Race and Priesthood.” This book (forward written by Darius A. Gray) shares the historical facts and personal stories around this important topic. Paul has divided the book into three sections: Phase One: Universal Priesthood and Temples Phase Two: Segregated Priesthood and Temples Phase Three: A Return to Racial Inclusivity Paul talks about why this book is needed, how racism still is a challenge in our Church, how understanding our history—even the difficult chapters—is essential to healing and coming together to create Zion. In addition to the historical facts, Paul humanizes this topic by sharing stories of black Latter-day Saints impacted by priesthood and temple restrictions. I believe it is the responsibility of Latter-day Saints to know our history. I encourage all of

Dr. Melissa Inouye, someone I deeply admire and respect, joins us to talk about a new book she and Kate Holbook (who died in August 2022) edited called “Every Needful Thing: Essays on the Life of the Mind and the Heart.” The book is a collection of twenty-two essays from accomplished academic and professional Latter-day Saint women. Melissa talks about why she and Kate decided to create this book, why this book is needed, and who is the audience. Melissa talks about gospel principles of belonging, learning, extending the stakes of Zion, and the systematic societal imbalances that work against us hearing and valuing women’s stories. The book is published by Deseret Book and BYU Maxwell Institute. Melissa also talks about how the School of the Prophets is a living framework for the restoration and how D&C 88 is bases for this book. Melissa also shares some of her personal story from a feeling in High School of being drawn to academia—and how that became a reality of her life—a story that gives p

My friend Taylor Smith (married father of 5, active LDS, born in Canada, lives in Maryland) joins us to share an extended version of a talk he gave in Church back in September 2022 about his journey to better see, mourn and support those in our Church who may have a harder road to walk (women, black members, LGBTQ members, those with honest questions, etc). Taylor talks about how in recent years he has experienced a paradigm shift that has allowed him to more genuinely love and support these individuals—amongst some wrestling’s of his own—while he stays a committed Latter-day Saint. Taylor shares quotes from church leaders, scriptures, and gospel principles about how we can better create Zion—and move from saying theoretically that there is a place for everyone in the church, towards actually creating that place in reality. He becomes emotional at times when he shares some of his experiences of listening and sitting with the pain of those walking a harder road. It is hard to put into a podcast description

I asked my friends at HXP (formerly HEFY) to come on the podcast and introduce this non-profit providing Latter-day Saint youth trips around the world. We joined by: Amy Antonelli: CEO Kelsi Christensen: Chief Innovations Officer Hannes Du Randt: Program Designer/Trip Leader The HXP teams introduces HXP, its worldwide trips (288 scheduled for the Summer of 2023; almost all full), the needs for parent builders, its goals and hopes. The team goes on to talk about the hopes to positively impact youth (95% are Latter-day Saint Youth and all Trip Leaders are active Latter-day Saints) to feel God’s love for them and other people around the world—as the engage in sustainable and impactful humanitarian projects. They talk about sign up for 2024 trips (enrollment opens in early November 2023). Each HXP members share some of their story including Amy finding worth/value/perspective as a single Latter-day Saints, Kelsi serving a mission in Brazil, a people she loved, and connecting with the Japanese pe

My friend (and former YSA) joins us to bravely talk about the pain and trauma experienced as a nanny in Germany. Emily later returned to Germany and served in the same area—and had a chance encounter with those responsible for her pain/trauma and talks about feelings of God’s love for them. However, feeling God’s love for them and forgiveness, didn’t fully resolve the trauma as Emily was still rejecting herself. Emily bravely shares her journey to see, address, and solve trauma. It’s a remarkable story. A story that will help others working to solve trauma and those wanting to help them. Thank you, Emily, for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you. I wish I had understood the principles and concepts you shared much earlier. Thank you your courage to be on the podcast. You are awesome! Links mentioned in the podcast: Emily Coaching Business: www.growwithzoella.com

My friend Geri Broadbent joins us to share the story of her husband Dan who died at age 43 after an 6-year battle cancer. Geri talks about the years (some during COVID) of his cancer treatments and his passing in December of 2021. She talks about the things she did to find hope and support during his battle and after his passing. She talks about the courage of her husband Dad and how she found to best support him. She talks about things family and friends did that were helpful—and how we can do better. She talks about life after Dan including Church (Geri in an active Latter-day Saint), therapy, finding hope and healing, and supporting her four children. If you have lost your spouse or a loved one—or are looking to better support someone walking this road, I encourage you to listen to Geri’s story. She is vulnerable, brave, real, insightful—with unique insights to find hope and healing. Thank you, Geri, for being on the podcast. You did a great job of honoring your good husband Dan and brin