Listen, Learn & Love Hosted By Richard Ostler

My friends Aaron and Julie Bujnowski (married parents of two; living North of Dallas, Texas, active Latter-day Saints) join us to talk about their new book “Navigating to Jesus: A Journey of Faith.” In this important 10-chapter book, Aaron and Julie share many of their own difficult/wounding experiences (both in and out of the Church), and their path forward to healing and staying in the Church is Jesus. Thank you, Aaron and Julie, for opening up your hearts in writing this needed book and being on the podcast. I am grateful for your courage to talk about some of your difficult life experiences, and “navigating to Jesus” is the answer. I encourage everyone to check out your book! Links: Amazon: https://a.co/d/cUw0Y09 Cedar Fort: https://www.cedarfort.com/products/navigating-to-jesus-a-journey-of-faith?sca_ref=2861413.ytmX5gv94t Instagram: @navigatingtojesus Earlier episode on Listen, Learn, and Love (episode 647): soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-647-aaron-and-julie-bujnowski-new-book-disc

My friend Jessica Frew (life coach, former husband is gay and still “part of the family”, married mother of three) joins us to share her story of her husband coming out as gay and that marriage ending—and still staying close as they co-parent their daughter. Jessica also talks about her important new book called “Shove Your Shoulds” which focuses on healthier boundaries, improved self-image, and deeper acceptance of ourselves and others. Jessica writes the book from her own experiences and from her work as a life coach. I am grateful for Jessica’s voice on acceptance and understanding in our community—and encourage everyone to check out her new book (currently in presale—release date of Sept 12, 2025). Thank you, Jessica, for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Links: Book website: https://shoveyourshoulds.com/ Jessica on Instagram: @heyjessicafrew Jessica’s podcast (Husband In Law): podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/husband-in-law/id1464470280 Jessica’s earlier episode on Listen, Learn,

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Alex Hayes (from Utah County, Age 18, planning to serve a mission) bravely joins us to share his story which includes: * Turning to porn at age 13 use as a coping mechanism * Don’t label porn as an addiction * Sexual orientation/feelings (gay or straight) are not from Satan * Importance of being a safe place when people are vulnerable * How shame and lack of self-love contributed to worse coping mechanisms resulting in being raped * PTSD of that whole experience (psych ward, etc) * How Emily Belle Freeman “Introduced this new Savior” * Alex’s powerful testimony of Heavenly Father and Jesus—and their role in our lives * How the “Miracle of the Gospel is Hope” * Buring desire to help others know Jesus and His Gospel of love and hope. Alex is one of the bravest that has ever been on our podcast because of his courage to be vulnerable and honest. Alex—because of his experiences—knows Jesus and His ability to

My friend Darren Parry (Shoshone Leader, Adjust Professor at Utah State and University of Utah, Author) joins us to talk about his new book called “Tending the Sacred: How Indigenous Wisdom will Save the World” which talks about values from the lens of our Indigenous friends to help understand and solve today’s problems. Darren talks about his own history (including his ancestors) using real life examples on how “Indigenous Wisdom” helps see and solve problems bringing us together as the same human family. I am deeply moved by Darren’s insights/soft heart and work to build bridges. I’m honored to have served as Darren’s companion during our missions in England 45 years ago as I had the chance to see Darren’s love for the people of England (and love for me—his new junior companion). I encourage everyone to reach Darren’s book—for timeless values to help bring us together. Thank you to our friends at BCC Press for publishing Darren’s book. Thank you, Darren, for being on the podcast and your nee

My friends McArthur Krishna and Anne Pimentel (authors, BYU grads, advocates for those on the margins) join us to talk about their important new book (at Deseret Book and Amazon) called “Changemakers: Women Who Bolding Built Zion” The podcast/book covers important topics: How revelation is “scattered” How women led changing the Church Institution with Primary and Relief Society How most of the change we can impact is in our local area around culture Anne’s racial awakening—and her desire to help people of other races feel belonging The “Back Yard Principle” Supporting those who leave the church Why McArthur and Anne (knowing all the complicated issues) stay in the Church Why McArthur hopes the Church her daughters are raised in is different than the Church she was raised in—and how we should embrace change Importance of personal authority If you are looking to improve church culture to better create Zion so more feel welcome, I encourage you to read/share this book. It has real-life stories and perspectives

My friends Shirley Washenko (sexual abuse survivor/advocate) and Sage Williams (MSc, RN, long-time advocate) joins us to talk about their new, groundbreaking and needed book (published by Deseret Book) called “Healing after Sexual Abuse, A Latter-day Saint Perspective”. The book has these powerful chapters: 1) Establishing Identity 2) Uncovering Wounds 3) Embracing Agency 4) Differentiating Healing Journeys 5) Responding to Anger with Integrity 6) The Core: Connection 7) It Takes “an Angel” to Speak the Truth 8) Grief: Linking, Past Present, and Future 9) Forgiveness in a New Light 10) The Healing Journey This is one of the finest podcasts we’ve done on healing after sexual abuse. Shirley and Sage (from their respective experiences) bring new, impactful, and practical insights to help heal from sexual abuse. The book will help sexual abuse survivors and also the rest of us as we learn better tools to help them. I encourage everyone to listen to the podcast, read the book—and share with others. Tha

My friends Ashli Carnicelli, Trina Caudle, and McArthur Krishna join us to talk about their new book “Mother in Heaven: A Gospel Topics Essay Study Guide.” The book is exactly what the title says: a study guide for the Church's Gospel Topics essay on Heavenly Mother. The book authors talk about the spiritual benefits in our lives of learning about the doctrine of Heavenly Mother and why She matters. This book is aligned with official Church statements and teachings about the doctrine of Heavenly Mother. The authors hope that it helps people seeking our Mother in Heaven to spiritually connect with Her so She is real, intentional, and active in our lives and in Church conversations. Thank you, Ashli, Trina and McArthur, for your needed work. I was deeply moved by your insights and good hearts. I encourage everyone to read this book. Links: Mother in Heaven Study Guide: www.amazon.com/dp/1734228725 Cherish 1: The Joy of Our Mother in Heaven: www.amazon.com/dp/1948218879 Cherish 2: The Love of

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Isaac Durfey (lives in Utah County, Age 34, Adopted, Active Latter-day Saint) bravely joins us to share his story which includes: * Being bullied * Being suicidal * Working through pornography * Convicted of being a sex offender and spending 4.5 years in prison * Leaving prison—what he learned, why he isn’t going back, finding hope * Accepting he is gay—but doesn’t define him * Talented musician * Great/supportive parents * Role of friends to help him feel he is loved and needed * Great YSA Wards * Hopes for his future including the Melchizedek Priesthood and Temple Endowment Thank you, Isaac, for your courage to come on the podcast and share your story—stories like yours help others find hope. Thanks for helping all understand our Heavenly Parents love all of us and how the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives hope, heals and helps us move forward. You are a good man. Links: Isaac on Instagram

My friend Lilly MacKenzie (who was on Episode 765) joins us to update listeners on her journey—including her spiritual journey (which includes more about her purpose, her belief in the Church, and her mission to help others). Lilly also talks about how the August 2024 transgender handbooks updates negatively impacted her—and how/why she continues to be a deeply committed and believing Latter-day Saint. She also talks about the support/support groups that help her. And she talks about how her emotional health is so much better since transitioning. Thank you, Lilly, for being on the podcast. You are brave. You are helping so many. Links: June 2025 Gather Conference: www.gather-conference.com/ Lilly’s earlier episode (765): podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-765-lilly-mackenzie-transgender-latter-day/id1347971725?i=1000661805297

My friend Aiden Kelly (he/him, trans man, age 23, future in theatre) and my friend Annalee Kelly (married mother of 4, RM, active LDS, from Idaho Falls) join us to share their story. Aiden starts and talks about: * Immense pain of gender dysphoria * Writing in his journal—and sharing that journal entry with his mother as a way to come out as a boy * Knowing sharing his pain with others would be key to getting help and making his future possible * How hormone treatment and top surgery ended the pain and have him hope * Parents support * Glad he is alive. Has hope and a future. * Advice to others who are suicidal/have no hope. Annalee then shares about: * The long-term hatred Aiden had for his body (hair pulling, pounding on his chest, etc) * Asking advice from his Bishop (good experience) * Had to put Aiden’s life ahead of my original dreams/hopes * Generally positive ward and family support * Starting Open Arms of Idaho * Pain of the August 2024 transgender handbook policy update * “Ai

My friend Nikki Andreasky (BYU-I grad, lives in AZ, they/them) joins us to share their story including: * Long-term gender dysphoria/chest dysphoria—and prayerful decision to have top surgery * Love of the temple * Learning of the handbook changes (Aug 2024) for transgender members weeks before the surgery leading to feelings of “being stabbed in the gut”, “betrayed” and “really hurt” * Meeting with local leaders * Proceeding with the top surgery—feelings of gender euphoria Pain of not being able to attend the temple and no chance of temple sealing * How North Star gave them a spiritual boost * Why they stay in the Church * Supportive mothers—grandma’s scriptures Nikki is one of my heroes—for their spiritual/emotional maturity and navigating an incredible complex road as a non-binary Latter-day Saint. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode so we can better understand, love and support non-binary/transgender Latter-day Saints. I believe they are needed members of the Body of Ch

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Jenn Curtis (late 40s, lives in California, experiences same-sex attraction) joins us to share her powerful story out of a desire to help others including: * Sexual assault survivor which led to unhealthy coping behaviors and immense shame * Falsely concluding “God is disappointed in me” * Falsely concluding (at age 17) that death would be a better option * Feeling unlovable and that “no one could love the real me” * Finding more hope—but two subsequent decades of living in a “form of internal hell” * Powerful spiritual experience where God told her she is a “bullfighter” * Honest about sexual orientation with God, herself, and husband * Helpful friends—part of the process to remove shame * As friends loved/accepted her, Jenn considered “I might be lovable—and God may love me too” * My story is a “beautiful love story” * Finding joy * Powerful EFY experience * North Star This is a super-powerf

My friend Sharlee Mullins Glenn (noted author, former adjunct faculty at BYU, committed Latter-day Saint, married mother of 5, founder and former Executive Director of MWEG) joins us to talk about her important and groundbreaking new book, an expansive epic poem full of imagination and possibilities, centering the feminine divine. In the words of Fiona Givens, Sharlee’s epic poem “is an ambitious and beautiful rendering of Latter-day Saint beliefs and yearnings regarding the feminine divine, the ethos of existence, and the centrality of agency, relationships and love.” Some of the ideas Sharlee shared include: 1) Her book is fiction--a blending of theology, science, and imagination 2) It is an offering of imagination, and does not purport to set forth doctrine 3) Imagination is a spiritual gift and reflects God's divine nature 4)The inclusion of the feminine divine was driven by two burning questions: a. Where are the women in the grand, ancient story of our beginnings, and b. What good is a doctrine if we

My friend Sara Sumsion (RM, Age 30, YSA ward leader, getting a master’s degree in marriage and family therapy) joins us to share her unique story. Sara starts with her good father’s decision to leave the Church and her initial judgements about his decision. She then shares her difficult mission experience including spiritual abuse that nearly broke her and led to her considering leaving the Church. Sara talks about finding the grey and her intentional decision to stay in the Church, her reconstructed testimony, and her desire to help others find hope and healing. Sara talks about her road to become a vocal LGBTQ Ally including her Instagram post of her non-binary friend. Sara talks about helping everyone feel welcome in their YSA ward and also practicing boundaries/good communication when interacting with less active members. Sara concludes with her Mother’s Day lesson including a focus on Heavenly Mother and helping all women feel good and welcome (regardless of their current status or feeling

My dear friends, Susan Hinckley and Cynthia Winward, (co-founders of the “At Last She Said It Project” which includes their groundbreaking podcast—with over 200 episodes and 2+ million downloads) join us to talk about their new book. Their book (published by Signature Books) invites readers to consider new perspectives, be open to changing our minds, and how growth can be uncomfortable—and how this leads to helping more fellow Latter-day Saints feel valued, welcome and how to have more belonging. The book helps us better understand patriarchy within the church and how this can cause pain for both women and men—and what we can do in our area of influence to improve. The book also addresses many other topics within the church to help us build Zion including: Discipling Obedience Fear Repentance Worthiness Cynthia's Personal Essay: “Works for Me” Susan's Personal Essay: “Metamorphosis” Speaking Up Why I Wear a Cross I’ve learned so much from these two good women about better ministering to others.

My friend Elder Jax Smith (multi-racial, from Highland Utah, Age 25) joins us to bravely share his story: Middle school: “My personal hell” Coming out to older siblings Suicidal ideation, hospitalization, “choosing to stay” Decision to serve a mission/called to Alabama Birmingham Reason for ending his mission and leaving the Church Role of good people (like Elder Jenkins) to help him return to Church Difficult YSA experience attending with his boyfriend—left the Church for a second time Focusing on Jesus and attending Baptist Church Bishop’s (also his uncle) invitation to attend his YSA Ward Calling that led him to full activity, becoming a temple worker, and going back on a mission Others (like Elder Wright and Brother Monson) that helped him accept himself and feel like he belonged Navigating church generated pain/trauma/difficult experiences Powerful testimony of Jesus Christ and His power to heal This is another super powerful/brave podcast from a remarkable Latter-day Saint. Thank you Elder Jax Sm

My friend Leon Crandell (lives in Snowflake AZ, cosmetologist, Brazil RM) joins us to bravely share his story: Survivor of sexual abuse Turning to substance abuse to deal with/escape the shame of sexual abuse Later abused by a doctor on his mission—and the shame of wondering why me Concluding being a victim of sexual abuse isn’t why he is gay Getting married (married for 27 years) and not really addressing his sexual orientation Gradually opening up to his wife—and their road to stay in their marriage and the Church Finding community of others walking this road Asking Heavenly Father “What do you think of me”? Super helpful Powerful (and healing) experience in a conversation with Jesus Kurt Francom’s impactful book “Is God Disappointed in Me” Hope instead of shame/fear This is a super powerful, vulnerable, and insightful podcast to help listeners see the role of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ to help us find more hope/peace in our lives—and how our unique differences help us reach others—helping to cr

My friend Darice (married mother of four including a transgender daughter, Gather Conference Director) joins us to share her story including: 1) Proximity to LGBTQ people—seeing their goodness/gifts/kindness 2) Being uncomfortable with the 2015 policy statements—"didn’t align with my spiritual integrity” 3) Being called as Stake Relief Society President and her work to help everyone feel loved and that they belong—including having a Stake inclusion specialist 4) Supporting her transgender daughter and her upcoming marriage to her non-binary partner 5) Living in “complexity” and how that gives her more perspective/tools to help others 6) Getting involved with Gather 7) Upcoming Gather Conference on June 27-28, 2025 Thank you, Darice, for your work to bless so many lives. I encourage everyone to listen to Darice’s story and attend Gather. Thank you for all your work (and many others with Gather) to build Zion and help everyone feel loved and welcome. Links: Gather Conference: thegatherconf

My friend Helen Anderson (Lives in Utah County, BYU Grad, Mother of 4, LGBTQ Ally) joins us to share her story: · Exposure to gay people in the 70’s and 80’s—becoming supportive · Carol Lynn Pearson’s book · Documentary called “TransMormon” and how it helped prepare her · Journey to love, see, understand, and accept her transgender daughter · Pronouns · OK to cry · High school graduation (great experience) · University of Utah welcome/housing (great experience) · Have a transgender/non-binary child is not a sad tragedy—but can become a beautiful family love story Helen also talks about her new variety show called “Dear Mom: Celebrating Mothers of LGBTQIA+ Children” on May 10th (see show notes for more information). Thank you, Helen, for your courage to come on the podcast and share your beautiful family love story. I’m grateful for your voice and experiences to help us better support the transgender people in our lives—for they ar

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Lucas Batista (grew up in Brazil, lived in Spain, RM/Chile) joins us to share his story including: 1) Growing up knowing he was like his gay mom (and all the negative comments about gay people) 2) Shame and “always wearing a mask” 3) Temple helping him feel less shame—never felt rejected by God 4) Great mission experience in Chile—came out to both Mission Presidents 5) Suicidal ideation after his mission—role of friends to give hope—including one who said “It’s OK—I will be with you to the end” 6) Letter to “future me” 7) Not broken, coming on the podcast to reduce shame and give others hope Thank you, Lucas, for your courage to come on the podcast and share your unique story. You are super brave. You story will help others to feel less shame, more acceptance, and hope for the future. You are a good man who has bless many lives. Our church and world are a better place with Lucas Batista part of