Listen, Learn & Love Hosted By Richard Ostler

My friend Suzie Greco—a survivor of child sex abuse and domestic abuse, a Latter-day Saint, a Harvard Divinity School graduate (Master's in Theology), a doctoral candidate, and an advocate in numerous organizations working to end abuse—joins us to share her powerful story and discuss her new book, The Stone Sphere. In this must-listen-to podcast, Suzie shares: * The meaning behind the title and image on the front cover of the book. Untrained Ministry and Institutional Harm, including both positive and negative experiences with her Stake President, David F. Hollard—who gave Suzie permission to include his name and their experiences in the book. * A Transformative Theology of Forgiveness—a much healthier framework for healing. * Pathways to Healing, Redemption, and Spiritual Transcendence, the golden thread of the book. It's hard to overstate the power and importance of this conversation. Suzie is doing breakthrough, trailblazing work. I learned so much and was deeply moved. If you are a survivor of abuse

My friend Autumn McAlpin (co-director and mother of two queer sons) and Vienna Boyes (co-director, mid 20s, queer) join us to share their stories and also their new feature length documentary called “Sanctuary”. Sanctuary—a must see—is a powerful documentary telling stories at the intersection of being a Latter-day Saint (and other Christian faiths) and being LGBTQ. I watched Sanctuary and was deeply moved hearing powerful stories/projects/efforts of queer people, parents, allies, and local church leaders. I learned so much and was deeply moved. I encourage everyone to watch Sanctuary (see show notes) and share with others. The film will be going on a screening tour in early 2026 before being released on streamers -- please follow the film's website and Instagram for screening announcements. Thank you, Autumn, and Vienna—and everyone involved with the documentary. You are making a huge difference in our community! Links: Sanctuary Web Site: https://sanctuarydoc.com/ Sanctuary Instagram: @s

My friend Bryson Lind (active gay Latter-day Saint, mid 30’s) joins us to discuss his new therapy practice in Utah (Aletheia Counseling) and important topics he helps clients (LGBTQ and straight) solve including: * Overcoming unwanted behaviors * Reconstructing a relationship with the Divine * Honoring everyone’s path * Trusting our Light of Christ/Inner Compass * Navigating relationships with parents and leaders * Developing self-confidence and patience If you are looking for a therapist (or insights from a therapist to help you—or to be a better ally for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints), this is a must listen podcast. Bryson’s brings his lived experience, clinical training, and 5 years of clinical practice together to offer powerful solutions and principles. I was so moved listening to Bryson and so grateful to have him back on the podcast. Thank you, Bryson. You are a good man doing great work in our community. Links: Bryson’s e-mail: bryson@aletheiacounselingtherapy.com Bryson’s Work Phone: 385-442-972

My friend Rob Metalf (married father of two, age 33) joins us to share his journey with his mental health (OCD/anxiety) and his physical health (Ankylosing spondylitis—or AS). Rob (guitar player and songwriter) has formed a band (TOWN!) and is releasing an album (The Road Trip) that captures many of his life experiences. The first song (Forever—see show notes) is a song about his anxiety. In the podcast, Rob talks about other songs that on the album talking about important and sensitive subjects (suicide, relationship with the Church, Alzheimer's). In the podcast, Rob shares his journey with AS (undiagnosed for a long time) and how it took him from an avid outdoorsman to—on his worse days—bedridden. Rob talks about his journey to find a diagnosis and the right medication to get him in a better spot—and all the people that helped him along the way. Rob is honest about feeling angry/abandon by God and how we can better support people with long-term health challenges. Rob is one of my heroes. He is a

Talk given in our YSA Ward on the character of our Heavenly Parents and Jesus—and how that brings us peace, healing, and hope. Focused on seven concepts: 1) Our Heavenly Parents love all Their children 2) We have to believe/know we are acceptable to God. That we are created as intended. That no one is a mistake 3) Zion isn’t sameness 4) Jesus loves to forgive 5) Whole and complete now 6) Don’t feel you are behind 7) Throw out the dating checklist Links: Seven Tips for Overcoming Porn Use: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/10/young-adults/7-tips-for-overcoming-pornography-use How the Savior’s Healing Applies to Repenting from Sexual Sin: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/08/young-adults/how-the-saviors-healing-power-applies-to-repenting-from-sexual-sin

My friends Aaron and Julie Bujnowski (married parents of two; living North of Dallas, Texas, active Latter-day Saints) join us to talk about their new book “Navigating to Jesus: A Journey of Faith.” In this important 10-chapter book, Aaron and Julie share many of their own difficult/wounding experiences (both in and out of the Church), and their path forward to healing and staying in the Church is Jesus. Thank you, Aaron and Julie, for opening up your hearts in writing this needed book and being on the podcast. I am grateful for your courage to talk about some of your difficult life experiences, and “navigating to Jesus” is the answer. I encourage everyone to check out your book! Links: Amazon: https://a.co/d/cUw0Y09 Cedar Fort: https://www.cedarfort.com/products/navigating-to-jesus-a-journey-of-faith?sca_ref=2861413.ytmX5gv94t Instagram: @navigatingtojesus Earlier episode on Listen, Learn, and Love (episode 647): soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-647-aaron-and-julie-bujnowski-new-book-disc

My friend Jessica Frew (life coach, former husband is gay and still “part of the family”, married mother of three) joins us to share her story of her husband coming out as gay and that marriage ending—and still staying close as they co-parent their daughter. Jessica also talks about her important new book called “Shove Your Shoulds” which focuses on healthier boundaries, improved self-image, and deeper acceptance of ourselves and others. Jessica writes the book from her own experiences and from her work as a life coach. I am grateful for Jessica’s voice on acceptance and understanding in our community—and encourage everyone to check out her new book (currently in presale—release date of Sept 12, 2025). Thank you, Jessica, for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Links: Book website: https://shoveyourshoulds.com/ Jessica on Instagram: @heyjessicafrew Jessica’s podcast (Husband In Law): podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/husband-in-law/id1464470280 Jessica’s earlier episode on Listen, Learn,

My friend Darren Parry (Shoshone Leader, Adjust Professor at Utah State and University of Utah, Author) joins us to talk about his new book called “Tending the Sacred: How Indigenous Wisdom will Save the World” which talks about values from the lens of our Indigenous friends to help understand and solve today’s problems. Darren talks about his own history (including his ancestors) using real life examples on how “Indigenous Wisdom” helps see and solve problems bringing us together as the same human family. I am deeply moved by Darren’s insights/soft heart and work to build bridges. I’m honored to have served as Darren’s companion during our missions in England 45 years ago as I had the chance to see Darren’s love for the people of England (and love for me—his new junior companion). I encourage everyone to reach Darren’s book—for timeless values to help bring us together. Thank you to our friends at BCC Press for publishing Darren’s book. Thank you, Darren, for being on the podcast and your nee

My friends McArthur Krishna and Anne Pimentel (authors, BYU grads, advocates for those on the margins) join us to talk about their important new book (at Deseret Book and Amazon) called “Changemakers: Women Who Bolding Built Zion” The podcast/book covers important topics: How revelation is “scattered” How women led changing the Church Institution with Primary and Relief Society How most of the change we can impact is in our local area around culture Anne’s racial awakening—and her desire to help people of other races feel belonging The “Back Yard Principle” Supporting those who leave the church Why McArthur and Anne (knowing all the complicated issues) stay in the Church Why McArthur hopes the Church her daughters are raised in is different than the Church she was raised in—and how we should embrace change Importance of personal authority If you are looking to improve church culture to better create Zion so more feel welcome, I encourage you to read/share this book. It has real-life stories and perspectives

My friends Shirley Washenko (sexual abuse survivor/advocate) and Sage Williams (MSc, RN, long-time advocate) joins us to talk about their new, groundbreaking and needed book (published by Deseret Book) called “Healing after Sexual Abuse, A Latter-day Saint Perspective”. The book has these powerful chapters: 1) Establishing Identity 2) Uncovering Wounds 3) Embracing Agency 4) Differentiating Healing Journeys 5) Responding to Anger with Integrity 6) The Core: Connection 7) It Takes “an Angel” to Speak the Truth 8) Grief: Linking, Past Present, and Future 9) Forgiveness in a New Light 10) The Healing Journey This is one of the finest podcasts we’ve done on healing after sexual abuse. Shirley and Sage (from their respective experiences) bring new, impactful, and practical insights to help heal from sexual abuse. The book will help sexual abuse survivors and also the rest of us as we learn better tools to help them. I encourage everyone to listen to the podcast, read the book—and share with others. Tha

My friends Ashli Carnicelli, Trina Caudle, and McArthur Krishna join us to talk about their new book “Mother in Heaven: A Gospel Topics Essay Study Guide.” The book is exactly what the title says: a study guide for the Church's Gospel Topics essay on Heavenly Mother. The book authors talk about the spiritual benefits in our lives of learning about the doctrine of Heavenly Mother and why She matters. This book is aligned with official Church statements and teachings about the doctrine of Heavenly Mother. The authors hope that it helps people seeking our Mother in Heaven to spiritually connect with Her so She is real, intentional, and active in our lives and in Church conversations. Thank you, Ashli, Trina and McArthur, for your needed work. I was deeply moved by your insights and good hearts. I encourage everyone to read this book. Links: Mother in Heaven Study Guide: www.amazon.com/dp/1734228725 Cherish 1: The Joy of Our Mother in Heaven: www.amazon.com/dp/1948218879 Cherish 2: The Love of

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Isaac Durfey (lives in Utah County, Age 34, Adopted, Active Latter-day Saint) bravely joins us to share his story which includes: * Being bullied * Being suicidal * Working through pornography * Convicted of being a sex offender and spending 4.5 years in prison * Leaving prison—what he learned, why he isn’t going back, finding hope * Accepting he is gay—but doesn’t define him * Talented musician * Great/supportive parents * Role of friends to help him feel he is loved and needed * Great YSA Wards * Hopes for his future including the Melchizedek Priesthood and Temple Endowment Thank you, Isaac, for your courage to come on the podcast and share your story—stories like yours help others find hope. Thanks for helping all understand our Heavenly Parents love all of us and how the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives hope, heals and helps us move forward. You are a good man. Links: Isaac on Instagram

My friend Lilly MacKenzie (who was on Episode 765) joins us to update listeners on her journey—including her spiritual journey (which includes more about her purpose, her belief in the Church, and her mission to help others). Lilly also talks about how the August 2024 transgender handbooks updates negatively impacted her—and how/why she continues to be a deeply committed and believing Latter-day Saint. She also talks about the support/support groups that help her. And she talks about how her emotional health is so much better since transitioning. Thank you, Lilly, for being on the podcast. You are brave. You are helping so many. Links: June 2025 Gather Conference: www.gather-conference.com/ Lilly’s earlier episode (765): podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-765-lilly-mackenzie-transgender-latter-day/id1347971725?i=1000661805297

My friend Aiden Kelly (he/him, trans man, age 23, future in theatre) and my friend Annalee Kelly (married mother of 4, RM, active LDS, from Idaho Falls) join us to share their story. Aiden starts and talks about: * Immense pain of gender dysphoria * Writing in his journal—and sharing that journal entry with his mother as a way to come out as a boy * Knowing sharing his pain with others would be key to getting help and making his future possible * How hormone treatment and top surgery ended the pain and have him hope * Parents support * Glad he is alive. Has hope and a future. * Advice to others who are suicidal/have no hope. Annalee then shares about: * The long-term hatred Aiden had for his body (hair pulling, pounding on his chest, etc) * Asking advice from his Bishop (good experience) * Had to put Aiden’s life ahead of my original dreams/hopes * Generally positive ward and family support * Starting Open Arms of Idaho * Pain of the August 2024 transgender handbook policy update * “Ai

My friend Nikki Andreasky (BYU-I grad, lives in AZ, they/them) joins us to share their story including: * Long-term gender dysphoria/chest dysphoria—and prayerful decision to have top surgery * Love of the temple * Learning of the handbook changes (Aug 2024) for transgender members weeks before the surgery leading to feelings of “being stabbed in the gut”, “betrayed” and “really hurt” * Meeting with local leaders * Proceeding with the top surgery—feelings of gender euphoria Pain of not being able to attend the temple and no chance of temple sealing * How North Star gave them a spiritual boost * Why they stay in the Church * Supportive mothers—grandma’s scriptures Nikki is one of my heroes—for their spiritual/emotional maturity and navigating an incredible complex road as a non-binary Latter-day Saint. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode so we can better understand, love and support non-binary/transgender Latter-day Saints. I believe they are needed members of the Body of Ch

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Jenn Curtis (late 40s, lives in California, experiences same-sex attraction) joins us to share her powerful story out of a desire to help others including: * Sexual assault survivor which led to unhealthy coping behaviors and immense shame * Falsely concluding “God is disappointed in me” * Falsely concluding (at age 17) that death would be a better option * Feeling unlovable and that “no one could love the real me” * Finding more hope—but two subsequent decades of living in a “form of internal hell” * Powerful spiritual experience where God told her she is a “bullfighter” * Honest about sexual orientation with God, herself, and husband * Helpful friends—part of the process to remove shame * As friends loved/accepted her, Jenn considered “I might be lovable—and God may love me too” * My story is a “beautiful love story” * Finding joy * Powerful EFY experience * North Star This is a super-powerf

My friend Sharlee Mullins Glenn (noted author, former adjunct faculty at BYU, committed Latter-day Saint, married mother of 5, founder and former Executive Director of MWEG) joins us to talk about her important and groundbreaking new book, an expansive epic poem full of imagination and possibilities, centering the feminine divine. In the words of Fiona Givens, Sharlee’s epic poem “is an ambitious and beautiful rendering of Latter-day Saint beliefs and yearnings regarding the feminine divine, the ethos of existence, and the centrality of agency, relationships and love.” Some of the ideas Sharlee shared include: 1) Her book is fiction--a blending of theology, science, and imagination 2) It is an offering of imagination, and does not purport to set forth doctrine 3) Imagination is a spiritual gift and reflects God's divine nature 4)The inclusion of the feminine divine was driven by two burning questions: a. Where are the women in the grand, ancient story of our beginnings, and b. What good is a doctrine if we

My friend Sara Sumsion (RM, Age 30, YSA ward leader, getting a master’s degree in marriage and family therapy) joins us to share her unique story. Sara starts with her good father’s decision to leave the Church and her initial judgements about his decision. She then shares her difficult mission experience including spiritual abuse that nearly broke her and led to her considering leaving the Church. Sara talks about finding the grey and her intentional decision to stay in the Church, her reconstructed testimony, and her desire to help others find hope and healing. Sara talks about her road to become a vocal LGBTQ Ally including her Instagram post of her non-binary friend. Sara talks about helping everyone feel welcome in their YSA ward and also practicing boundaries/good communication when interacting with less active members. Sara concludes with her Mother’s Day lesson including a focus on Heavenly Mother and helping all women feel good and welcome (regardless of their current status or feeling

My dear friends, Susan Hinckley and Cynthia Winward, (co-founders of the “At Last She Said It Project” which includes their groundbreaking podcast—with over 200 episodes and 2+ million downloads) join us to talk about their new book. Their book (published by Signature Books) invites readers to consider new perspectives, be open to changing our minds, and how growth can be uncomfortable—and how this leads to helping more fellow Latter-day Saints feel valued, welcome and how to have more belonging. The book helps us better understand patriarchy within the church and how this can cause pain for both women and men—and what we can do in our area of influence to improve. The book also addresses many other topics within the church to help us build Zion including: Discipling Obedience Fear Repentance Worthiness Cynthia's Personal Essay: “Works for Me” Susan's Personal Essay: “Metamorphosis” Speaking Up Why I Wear a Cross I’ve learned so much from these two good women about better ministering to others.

My friend Elder Jax Smith (multi-racial, from Highland Utah, Age 25) joins us to bravely share his story: Middle school: “My personal hell” Coming out to older siblings Suicidal ideation, hospitalization, “choosing to stay” Decision to serve a mission/called to Alabama Birmingham Reason for ending his mission and leaving the Church Role of good people (like Elder Jenkins) to help him return to Church Difficult YSA experience attending with his boyfriend—left the Church for a second time Focusing on Jesus and attending Baptist Church Bishop’s (also his uncle) invitation to attend his YSA Ward Calling that led him to full activity, becoming a temple worker, and going back on a mission Others (like Elder Wright and Brother Monson) that helped him accept himself and feel like he belonged Navigating church generated pain/trauma/difficult experiences Powerful testimony of Jesus Christ and His power to heal This is another super powerful/brave podcast from a remarkable Latter-day Saint. Thank you Elder Jax Sm