Listen, Learn & Love Hosted By Richard Ostler

My friend Lyric Kinard (lives in Raleigh, married mother of 5 including queer kids, active Latter-day Saint) joins us to share her story around creating support groups and an invitation to attend Gather Southeast (in Raleigh, NC) on Sept 20, 2025). Lyric talks about: Principles for starting a support group Engaging local leaders Importance of speaking up and having a second witness Creating safe spaces at church Gather Southeast Why she wears her transgender scarf to Church Being like Jesus Thank you, Lyric, for being on the podcast and all your work (along with many others in your area) to help LGBTQ Latter-day Saints feel more welcome, loved and needed. It is people like you that give me hope. You are making a huge difference for good. Links: Gather Southeast: www.gathersoutheast.com/ Gather Southeast Newsletter: www.gathersoutheast.com/f/gather-se-newsletter Gather Southeast Instagram: www.instagram.com/gather_southeast/ Gather Southeast Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61563441041

My friend McKay Mayes (from Wyoming, London South RM, Age 29, Lives/Works in Utah County) joins us to share his story including: Always believing/hoping he would be fixed and be straight Great mission experience—but still gay Not fitting the typical gay stereotype Dating and trying to make it work with a woman—wanted to follow God’s plan—super painful not finding a way to make that possible Feeling “left behind” as straight friends got married For six years, committed to being single in line with the Church’s celibate guidance—leading to the darkest/most painful moments of McKay’s life New prayers (instead of “fix me”) Finding hope, acceptance of being gay, and purpose in his new path Relationship with the Church and hopes for changes First coming out experience (super helpful) I continue to be amazed by the brave/mature/thoughtful people who share their stories on the podcast—with McKay joining that group—and his desire to give hope to others walking a similar road. Thank you, McKay, for all you have done

My friend Barbara Higinbotham (married mother of 5 living children including a non-binary child, transgender daughter, and gay son; early 60s; recently returned in early 2025 from serving a senior mission with her husband Dan). Barbara shares: Assumptions should be challenged, being uncomfortable leads to growth Being LGBTQ doesn’t make someone a predator Why she chooses to honor the new names (Ben and Heather) and her non-binary child and transgender daughter including updated Christmas stockings Focus on the temple (current temple workers) and our Savior to find revelation, hope, and peace—and anchoring in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Trusting/believing her children We are not better church members by distancing ourselves from the LGBTQ people in our lives Processing unkind comments in Church and on social media Managing grief with changing expectations Thank you, Barbara, for being on the podcast. I wish I could have listened to you 10-20 years ago—your insights would have helped to be a better dis

My friend my friend Cort Watson (construction management major/BYI-Idaho, from Tremonton, Arcadia CA RM, former FSY counselor) joins us to bravely share his story including: Navigating feeling different, not sure believed in Church, deciding to serve a mission Coming out first to his junior companion and then his Mission President (both good experiences) Processing pain (and subsequent anger to God) about being gay Deep spiritual experiences (and role of the temple) to “thank God for making me this way” Being gay is part of the God’s plan for me and not a punishment Come out on social media in 2024 to help others Being laser focus on Christ to provide hope, help and healing Role of the temple to feel God’s love and direction Life at BYI-Idaho as a gay student (positive experience) Thank you, Cort, for your courage to share your story with others. Your courage/vulnerability helps others that they too are loved by God and needed in our church community. Thanks for helping us build Zion. You are a good man

My friend Eric Hales (a highly recommended therapist, gay, mid-30s, former Latter-day Saint, licensed in Utah, Idaho, Nevada, and Virginia) joins us to talk about his work supporting the queer and Latter-day Saint community. Eric starts by sharing some of his story and then talks about key concepts that promote healing, including: Creating safety Healing from wounds Self-compassion Addressing shame-based trauma and C-PTSD What to look for in a therapist Understanding and addressing numbing behaviors This is one of the finest and most insightful podcasts we’ve done with a therapist. I learned so much from Eric. If you want to better understand how a therapist can help you (or others), want better tools to support others, or are queer and looking for more hope, self-love, and healing, please listen to Eric’s podcast and share it with others. This is the kind of episode I wish I had heard before becoming a parent and a local church leader. When we know better, we do better. Thank you, Eric, for being on th

My friend Kelsey Wells (RM, from Idaho, lives in Utah County, former EFY counselor and seminary teacher, active in her ward) joins us to bravely share her story. Kelsey starts with coming out to her mother (senior year of high school) and the good/difficult experiences—including how not talking about it brings shame. Kelsey talks about wanting to service a mission but putting that on pause because she realized she was not doing that for the right reasons. Kelsey shares what changed and how she ended up serving. Kelsey bravely talks about getting engaged to a man and how that engagement ended a few weeks before the wedding. Kelsey talks about ignoring red flags because of her desire to get married and have a family. Kelsey talks about being in the Temple and a sealer sharing some thoughts that gave her clarity and courage to end the engagement. Kelsey talks about not wanting to be alive—but finding hope in Christ, therapy and the Questions From the Closet podcast. Kelsey also talks about “fear i

My friend Marley Orton (married mother of three, mid-50s, Utah County, real estate broker/hair stylist, RM) joins us to share her story of love and acceptance of her non-binary child CC. Marley starts with the pregnancy of this child knowing it was twins and having that confirmed via ultrasound. However, that changed with “Vanishing Twin Syndrome” where she ended up with one child. Marley talks about CC being sensitive, focused on those left out, sweet and a great sibling to their younger brother Zac. Marley talks about CC coming out as pansexual at age 16 and the body dysphoria they felt and feeling ostracized—especially at church. Marley talks about—with the help of a great therapist—CC understanding the identity that resonated with them: non-binary—and how CC's mental health and hope for the future improved with the process of transitioning. Marley talks about discovering “Chimera Twin Syndrome” and how this could bring a more scientific understanding to CC being non-binary. Marley talks abo

My friend Matt Higinbotham (RM from Tempe Arizona, returned Feb 2024, from Utah County, BYU student) joins us to share his story as a gay Latter-day Saint. Matt talks about his early years figuring out his sexuality and his journey to realize (and then accept) he is gay. Matt talks about the role of prayer, scripture study, and temple attendance to help feel God’s love, acceptance, hope for his future and the desire to serve/help others (a big reason he did the podcast). Matt talks about his desire to serve a mission and how that hope eventually became a reality—all while being open with his church leaders about his sexual orientation. Matt talks about the positive and painful experience of being gay and on a mission. Some the negative ones were around gay jokes (missionaries and members) and some of the positive ones were where being open about being gay allowing him to help others know they too could feel God’s love, and acceptance. Matt talks about how navigating a variety of experience (including

My friend Trevor Schoeny (RM from Lubbock Texas, returned Dec 2024, from Virgina/DC, BYU student, Age 23) joins us to share his story as a gay Latter-day Saint. Trevor starts with realizing he is gay and then coming out to his parents after his senior year (positive experience). Trevor talks about stepping away from the Church (which helped him eventually come back to the Church) and his brave (and somewhat surprising) decision to serve a mission (and walk back into a place of trauma)—because he wanted to help others heal from pain and find love. Trevor (who reads scriptures throughout the podcast) talks about all the things he learned and taught on his mission including: * Fear has no place in the Gospel * His crucible moment when he decided to stay on his mission * No one should feel they are not celestial material * Importance of vulnerability * Finding our story in the scriptures I was so moved listening to and learning from Trevor—a great man who was been through the “winepress” representing th

My friends Jake and Joe Sharp (identical twins, age 24, from Mesa Arizona, RMs) join us to talk about their life work to help others choose to stay, turn to positive coping behaviors, finding hope and the role of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to heal from pain. Jake and Joe start with the story of losing their younger brother Sam to suicide at age 16 while they were on their missions. They talk about the goodness of Sam—as well as the difficult mental health challenges (OCD, toxic perfection, etc) that Sam faced, and all their family was doing to help him find hope. They talk about the heartbreaking pain, anger, and guilt they faced—and how Christ and therapy has helped them heal. They talk about unhealthy coping behaviors to deal with the pain (pornography use and overeating) and how they learned better tools/behaviors helping to be in a better place. They talk about shame and how that is Satan’s greatest tool to separate us from the love of our Heavenly Parents and the Savior—and how shame ha

My friend Dr. Matthew L Harris (Historian, Colorado State University) joins us to talk about his powerful new book called “Second-Class Saints: Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality”— a fifteen-year labor of love. In Matt’s book (which was a powerful read for me), he draws on never-before-seen private papers of LDS apostles and church presidents—including Spencer W. Kimball to help us understand the complexity of ending the ban—something that President Kimball considered long before becoming Church President. Matt talks about why the ban started, who started it, how it became official doctrine for decades, and what shifted to cause church leaders to end the ban. Matt also talks about why ending the ban didn’t end racist teachings about black people—how all those prior teachings have now been refuted—but still might exists in our culture. Matt discusses key questions like was the ban doctrine or policy? Was it “just not time yet to end the ban”? And other important questions. Matt

My friend Richard Hanks (mid 60s, retired business executive, active Latter-day Saint/former Mission President) joins us to talk about his biography of his father Elder Marion D. Hanks (beloved general authority—called at age 31—who lived from 1921-2011) in his book called “To Be a Friend of Christ: The Life of Marion D. Hanks.” Richard talks about his father’s unique approach to the gospel and his work—focused on following Christ—advocating for: increasing the church's humanitarian efforts, Christian service by full-time missionaries, acceptance of those on the fringes, the creation of singles wards, combining High Priests and Elders quorums, adapting garments to local climates, civil marriage before sealings, a kinder and more merciful approach to repentance, and a strong/vocal desire to end the priesthood ban—all while being deeply committed to the Church and supportive of its leaders. Richard talks about key areas of his father’s ministry including “aggressive Christianity versus aggressive proselyt

My friend Hailey Kynaston (Anaheim California RM, BYU-I marriage and family studies major, grew up in Davis County) bravely joins us to share her story. Hailey starts with her journey coming to terms with her sexual orientation during her high school years, dating girls secretly, as well as dating boys. Hailey talks about her journey to attend her YSA ward, working to gain a testimony and ultimately serving a successful mission. Hailey talks about the transformative experiences on her mission that helped her develop a deeper relationship with Christ, find more hope/peace, and clarity about her future—including keeping her covenants and hopes to marry a man in the temple. Hailey shares her post-mission coming out post (super powerful—with a focus on her primary identity as a daughter of loving Heavenly Parents—insights about our Savior—and hopes for her future). Hailey talks about the support she feels at North Star and its upcoming conference (Feb 27 – March 1st) and the YSA group she is leading.

My friend Candice Clark (mother of 5, lives in Iowa City, Iowa) joins us to share her story of her journey to love, understand, and accept her queer kids—and the blessings of using their preferred pronouns. Candice is open about the sometimes choppy road to using preferred pronouns—but talks about how that brought improved relationships and more love, open communication, and genuine family unity and understanding. She shares ten messages a queer person might hear when we use their pronouns: You know yourself better than I know you. I would rather change the way I speak about you than hurt you repeatedly. Your sense of safety is important to me. Your identity is real and should be acknowledged. I want to teach everyone around me to respect you. Being uncomfortable is fine if I avoid being offensive. I can hear you talking and I am really listening. Being who you truly are is not an inconvenience to me. I would prefer if you kept being honest with me. I am an ally, a friend, and someone you can trust. Cand

My friends Emilie Call (married mother of 4) and Ashlie Sanders (married mother of 3) join us to talk about their podcast they founded, and co-host called “That’s Church Podcast” which builds bridges of understanding to other faiths (and people of no faith) and to better support people within our own faith (such as LGBTQ folks). They also share their personal stories navigating complicated topics in our faith and how their work has helped them stay in our Church. Emilie and Ashlie talk about the next event at Compass Gallery in Provo, Utah on March 8th(National Women’s Day)—speakers and purpose-an awesome event that I encourage you to attend. Also, Ashlie talks about the IG account (@the_nuanced_mormon) to explore diverse spiritual journeys. If you are looking for two thoughtful voices in our faith community doing much needed bridge-building work, please listen to this episode and connect with their podcast and consider attending their event on March 8th Thank you, Emilie and Ashlie, for being on

My friend Liberty Hansen (age 20, lives in Spanish Fork Utah, Richmond Virginia RM) joins us to share her story of returning home from her mission after two months because of a desire to improve our culture to help others walking this road. Liberty talks about how much she loved missionary work—but suffered from panic attacks and feelings of suicide—and feelings of drowning. She talks about difficult experience on her mission where she didn’t feel safe or supported. An exception to that was one of her companions—still a dear friend—and all this companion did to help her. Liberty talks about coming home and the support she received from her family and ward. She talks about how she handled the airport, her first week back in the Ward, her homecoming talk and the good/not helpful comments. Liberty also talks about why she stays in the church—even though she feels so level of being let down by the Church. Liberty talks about a new Instagram account she started (see show notes) where other early r

My friend Hayden Clark (age 30, married, father of one, lives in Mesa Arizona, former Utah Dixie State University football player, Phoenix firefighter and paramedic, stake high councilor), joins us to share his journey to understand and solve his porn use. Hayden talks about his early exposure to porn (age 7) and how this became a coping mechanism to deal with life. Hayden talks about not opening up to his wife about his porn use before their marriage—but finally having the courage to talk about this once married. Once Hayden opened up to his wife about his porn use, that opened the door to do the needed work to solve it. Hayden talks about therapists (including Sara Brewer’s program) which helped him understand his porn use was really a coping mechanism (or “buffer”) to deal with/escape the challenges of life. With that reframing, Hayden talks about the things he did to improve himself to be closer to sobriety. In addition to good therapy, Hayden also talks about the role of The Atonement o

My friends Clint and Melinda Mueller (live in Litchfield Park, Arizona; BYU grads; forensic engineering business owners) join us to share their story of having two gay sons (four sons total, sons #2 and #3 are gay—age 29 and 26 respectively—both returned missionaries). Clint talks about the long road (started in 2016) when their first son came out—and all the changed perspective needed to better support their sons (going from “not on my watch will I have a gay son” to loving/supporting them). Clint talks about deeply spiritual experiences (including talking with other gay people in his life) that helped him do better. Melinda talks about personal revelation including “your job is to love them; my job is to save them.” Clint and Melinda talk about the shock of when their second son came out following his mission—and how they were better equipped to love and support him. Clint also shares what they are doing in their LDS circle to help local leaders/members better support LGBTQ members. If you

My friends Dr. Ben Schilaty, Clare Dalton, and Liz Macdonald join us to talk about the rebranding of the powerful podcast “Questions From The Closet” to “All Out in the Open.” They share how the expanded scope includes once-a-month hosts including Iese Wilson focusing on international queer Latter-day Saints, Clare Dalton on how the scriptures provide principles to help queer Latter-day Saints, Liz Macdonald and Michael Soto talking about community building, and Ben Schilaty and Charlie Bird talking about how to be more open with ourselves and others. They also talk about the Gather/All Arizona conference in Mesa (March 29, 2025), the Gatherings monthly scripture curriculum, the annual Gather Conference in Provo (June 26-28, 2025), and a new conference called Belong (a conference for queer youth and youth allies—born out of the successful Gather track at the 2024 conference). If you want to feel hope in the LDS/LGBTQ space, please listen to this episode and (more importantly) listen to “All Out in the

My friend Paul Peterson (married father of 3, lives in Arkansas, Master’s in Marriage and Family Therapy from Valdosta State University, owns/runs his own practice) joins us to talk about how we can know we are whole/perfect now and we are always loved by God—and tools to absolutely accept this. Paul talks about how this helps us to “become”—not from a feeling of shame/brokenness—but from a position of strength, fully understanding our identity as a beloved child of God. Paul brings his personal experience, academic training, theological understanding, and professional experience to make this a reality in our lives. I was deeply moved (and calmed) listening to Paul. I encourage everyone to check out this episode and read Paul’s book—I believe it will help you and give you more tools to help others. Thank you, Paul, for being on the podcast and your much needed work in our community. It is good people like you that give me hope. Links: Paul’s website: www.paulwpeterson.com/ Paul’s book: www.amazo