Listen, Learn & Love Hosted By Richard Ostler

My friend Oakley Roberts (from Payson Utah, RM from Liberia Africa) joins us to share his story. Oakley talks about knowing he was different since age 12, his high school life (including his mantra “if they wanted to be in my life, they were welcome”) and coming out a bisexual over the phone to his sister while on his mission (later coming out as gay to his mother). Oakley talks about the curse/punishment he felt from God for being gay—and the pain/shame of that initial conclusion. Oakley talks about reaching out to people for help and how coming out and being authentic improved his feelings about himself. Oakley talks about the powerful spiritual experience in the canyon east of Cedar City while in college with the personal revelation that Oakley’s sexual orientation (like all of Oakley’s attributes) are divine in nature and Oakley is created as intended—a 180 degree shift from this earlier feelings about being cursed. Oakley talks about his visit with his Bishop (super helpful) and his supportive

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Kyle Dunshee (age 30, married father with new baby, suicide survivor) joins us to share his journey with mental health. Kyle starts with his journey with severe OCD/anxiety which led to a suicide attempt at age 10. Kyle talks about his great parents getting him help—including being institutionalized (helpful experience). Kyle also talks about self-harm and gives insights on why people engage in this behavior and how it is able to put this behind him. Kyle talks a Book of Mormon scripture story that gave him hope and his decision to serve a mission—but the painful/angry experience when he was denied this opportunity. Kyle talks about his pain, anger at the institutional Church, and the deeply spiritual experience in an empty movie theatre watching an R rated movie—a powerful experience where he felt the love of God and a desire to become more active in the Church. Kyle talks about why he decided t

My friend long-time friend Dusty Bee (late 30s, RM, father of two sons/divorced, was in a same-sex marriage/excommunicated/now divorced, DJ/business owner, lives in Idaho) joins us to share his unique and powerful story. Dusty talks about knowing he was gay/different around 10, serving a mission (asking God to make him straight), marrying a women (while closeted), marrying to a man (married about 6 years—a marriage Dusty doesn’t regret and into a family he loves), being excommunicated (very painful experience), and then his decision (with a powerful spiritual experience on the Rome temple grounds) to get rebaptized (working with the same Stake President and their reconciliation after the difficult excommunication). Yes, Dusty is still gay—and talks about how he accepts/love himself, why he believes in the Church, how we can better support LGBTQ members, and the character of our Heavenly Parents—including Their deep love for ALL Their children. Dusty is not asking couples in same-sex marriages to follo

Episode 797: Dr. Daniel Parkinson, Mentor to LDS Parents with LGBTQ Kids, New Book by Richard Ostler

My friend Nathan Kitchen (father of five, RM, dentist, mid-50s, in a same-sex marriage, author, powerful/thoughtful/mature voice in the queer LDS space) joins us to share some of this story and talk about his new book called “The Boughs of Love: Navigating the Queer Latter-day Saint Experience During an Ongoing Restoration.” Nathan talks about some of his personal story (including following church leader counsel as a gay Latter-day Saint young man to marry a woman) and how that marriage eventually ended. Nathan—who holds a deep belief in our Heavenly Parents—talks about scripture stories and gospel principles he used to navigate his life and how those apply to helping younger queer Latter-day Saints write their own story from a queer centric/Christ centered perspective. Nathan talks about why he wrote the book (“to cast hope”) to help queer Latter-day Saints and allies. Nathan also talks about the role of Affirmation and its worldwide efforts to help queer Latter-day Saints find their joy in the places

My friend Tyler Bastian joins us to talk about Roots High School (located on a 5-acre farm)—a charter school for students who need a different experience—and may have fallen through the cracks. Tyler talks about why he started the school in 2015, its focus, their mission statement around “we love you”, and what they are doing in a unique and powerful way to help each student feel purpose and belonging. Tyler also talks about the role of farm animals in the education process, how it helps individual students, and how the farm environment brings down potential barriers between groups. Tyler also talks about we love others “not by words—but how we treat them”. Tyler also shares career advice for those who may not feel comfortable in a more traditional career path—by sharing his own story find his way to start a chapter school. Thank you, Tyler, for being on the podcast and all you are doing to give student more hope, purpose, and a feeling of belonging. I’m grateful for your work—and everyone at R

My friend Emma Westwood (married mother of 5, nurse at Primary Children's Hospital, Latter-day Saint) joins us to talk about her gay little brother Collin Russell who died of an accidental overdose at the age of 23 in 2018. Emma talks about Collin coming out to her while a junior in high school and the difficult road he faced full of shame—which led to addictions to cope with the pain/shame—which led to his death by an accidental overdose on December 26th, 2018. Emma talks about her immensely gifted brother—full of light and hope—but how the shame/self-loathing of his sexual orientation dimmed his feelings about himself/his future. Emma talks about the decision that she and her husband Isaac made to name the Encircle Home in Heber City after Collin—now called The Collin Russell Home—and the positive role of Encircle to provide hope, connection, and a safe place for LGBTQ+ youth. And a wish that Collin has something like Encircle in his life. Emma (and her mother Laurie in an Instagram message) talk ab

**This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Chloe Siegfried (she/her, gay, age 27, Salt Lake City native, deep belief in God/prayer) joins us to share her story of growing up LDS, coming out as gay, and then turning to alcohol and being in unhealthy relationships—partly to deal with her pain. Chloe talks about multiple suicide attempts, inpatient stays, and dark days. Chloe talks about prayer—one of the constants in her life and how she was finally able to stay sober on January 1st, 2023. It is a beautiful story of courage, prayer, family support and learning self-love. Chloe also talks about finding Ashlon and the beauty and health of that relationship and decided to get marriage in October of 2024. Chloe talks about her family support-including her younger brother Cole (the first person she came out to) officiating at the wedding. Chloe talks about her current work in a recover center helping others. Chloe is doing the podcast to talk to

Our son Jake Ostler (Undergraduate Degree in Psychology, Master’s Degree in Social Work, Certificate in anti-human trafficking, LCSW, working with sexual violence survivors in over 10 different countries since 2016) joins us to talk about his new non-profit called International Protection Alliance (protectall.org/). Jacob also serves on the Board of the Utah Social Work Association. Jake, who is looking for donations and supporters for his new non-profit, talks about why he co-founded it, its mission (to stop online sexual exploitation and support survivors), and how you can help. Jake also talks about the myths and facts of sex trafficking and what parents can do to better help their kids to be safe. While you can’t donate to our podcast, I am inviting you to listen to this podcast and consider donating to Jake’s non-profit International Protection Alliance. I deeply believe in the work Jake is doing and his skills (clinical, organizational, financial) to run an effective non-profit with a mission to

My friend Oliver Black (RM, UVU student, grew up in Utah County) joins us to share his story with gender dysphoria and how we can help trans/non-binary Latter-day Saints feel more welcome. Oliver delayed his transition so he could serve a mission (Montana—great experience—wanted to serve to help others), but has now been fully transitioned for over three years. He talks about the positive experiences in his mission and the role of spiritual promptings when coming out while in the field. Oliver then talks about the love/support he's received from his parents and local wards—and the spiritual peace he feels. He also discusses the difficult road transgender Latter-day Saints walk and what we can do to better support them. In this regard, Oliver has written “7 Ways Local Church Leaders Can Make Church Safe for Transgender Members” (link in show notes). This labor of love suggests ways (given the new handbook changes in Aug 2024) to help transgender members feel more safe, accepted, loved, and needed. He ans

My friend and mentor Pastor Stan Mitchell (familiar with and friend to Latter-day Saints) joins us to share his story of his changed heart/perspective about LGBTQ people that occurred during his ministry at Grace Point Church in Nashville. Stan (who attended Latter-day Saint services as a youth causing him to reframe his view of Jesus from vengeful to loving) talks about teachings of Jesus to love/support/accept LGBTQ folks—accept/validate their pain—and be open to what we can do better to support these good folks. Stan talks about his work with Christian parents who deeply love their queer kids, their Christian beliefs, and want what is best for their kids. He offers suggestions on how to navigate this road. Stan also talks directly to our queer friends to help them feel more love, acceptance, and hope for their future—and a plea for those considering suicide to stay. Stan brings his strong theological insights, soft heart, and 1000’s of visits with people walking this road to help others. Thank

My friend Ben Higinbotham (mid-30s, BYU grad, non-binary, gay, active LDS, RM, they/he/she) joins us to share their story of self-acceptance and personal growth. Ben talks about their lifelong journey on this road of being gay and not feeling like they fit as a girl—including personal revelation, coming out to others, their strong relationship with God and finding peace/hope in their life. Ben also talks about shame—and how rather than curing them of their queerness, God is curing them of their shame. They talk about using the new name of Ben—including the backstory of the importance of that name. Ben talks about how being gay and/or non-binary is not a sin—but transitioning (even social transitioning) removes some church privileges, which can be difficult. Ben talks about how they are navigating that road and still participating in the Church. Ben loves Jesus and is trying to be more like Him—they strongly believe that it is possible to be both queer and Christian. Ben shares their love and mus

My friend Dr Tyler Johnson (former YSA Bishop, oncologist, clinical assistant professor at Stanford University) joins us to talk about his new book published by Deseret Book called “When Church is Hard”. Tyler talks about how different testimony types (“I know”, “I believe”, “I hope”, etc) actually are a good thing—helps us extend the tent of Zion and bring more people to Christ. He also talks about how not every Latter-day Saint will have a “I know” testimony and how that person shouldn’t feel like a second-class citizen—but a valued/needed member of our community. In the second part of the book, Tyler also talks about supporting those (and us) when God is silent. In the third part of the book, Tyler shares better ministering skills to support those with church generated pain or the pain they see in others. He talks about what do we do (in ourselves and helping others) when our “hearts breaks at Church”. Tyler talks about specific examples and the importance of validating pain—and how pain is a go

*Trigger warning: This episode mentions suicide. If you are experiencing suicidal thoughts and are in need of support, please reach out for help by calling 988. We care and we want you to be safe.* My friend, Colette Dalton (she/her) is a queer licensed clinical social worker and certified sex therapist. Colette was my guest on an episode in 2021, so she catches us up on her journey in healing from trauma and living with depression and describes her more recent experiences with finding what she terms as "Queer Joy." Colette also talks about her work with clients at Hearten House in downtown Salt Lake City; she specializes in experiential therapy, reuniting the mind and body, which is particularly important for many queer individuals with LDS backgrounds, due to high rates of internalized homophobia. Colette also meets with clients virtually throughout Utah, Arizona, and Idaho. Colette teaches us about a fantastic, free, resource for queer individuals and allies that she has recently developed, called

My friend Laurie Lee Hall (convert, former Director of LDS Temple Design and Construction, former Stake President, in her early 60s) joins us to share her story. Laurie Lee talks about her lifelong journey to manage her gender dysphoria and eventually “live as the woman I am”. Laurie Lee talks about the impossible choices she faced in this journey as a successful 20-year Church employee (the last part in the physical facilities department—one of her last projects being the expanded Provo MTC) and serving as a Stake President. That led to Laurie Lee’s Church employment ending and losing her Church membership. Laurie Lee talks about continuing (for a time) to participate in a new ward and being accepted in Relief Society—and the joy/belonging she felt. She talks about “living as Laurie Lee and the peace it brings me”, the new August 2024 handbook changes restricting transgender members, concerns about a “surveillance culture”—all of which are covered (and more) in her new book. Laurie Lee also talk

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Hunter Howell (Bio Medical Science Major, New Mexico/Farmington RM, Suicide Survivor) joins us to share his story. Hunter talks about his pre-mission years navigating his same-sex attraction, completing a mission (including falling in love with a companion), and being a BYU-Idaho student. At BYU-Idaho, Hunter faced the most difficult chapter in his life recognizing he wasn’t going to be able to marry a woman—leading to a suicide attempt—which led to a therapist that gave tools for Hunter to find hope in his future. Hunter talks about his deep relationship with his Heavenly Father and Savior and their love of/support for Hunter. Hunter gives honest advice to queer Latter-day Saints considering a mission and/or attending BYU-Idaho. If you are looking for hope, please listen to Hunter story. Thank you, Hunter, for being on the podcast, for how you are, and for your ability to bless/help others.

My friend Heather Prinz (lives in Fayetteville Arkansas, Speech Pathologist, Sexual Assault Survivor: Dr. Broadbent OBGYN lawsuit) bravely joins us to share her story. Heather talks about her sexual assault under the guise of medical care, discovering she was one of hundreds of other victims, and her journey through trauma and healing. Heather talks about how she felt at the time of the assault, her inability to accept what had happened, how the assault negatively impacted her life over the following 15 years, and her road (with the help of great therapy) to find healing. Heather also talks about her decision to come out publicly after 2 years as an anonymous 'Jane Doe' in the ongoing civil lawsuit against Dr. Broadbent and the community of support this group of survivors developed throughout their attempts to prevent this from happening to others. If you are a victim of sexual abuse or want better tools to help others, please listen to Heather’s podcast. Thank you, Heather, for being on the podcast

My friend David Smurthwaite (married father of 4, gender expansive, active Latter-day Saints) joins us to share ideas on ministering to anyone struggling with the updated Church transgender policies. David starts with a brief recap of his own story (including talking to his Bishop at age 11 and opening up to his wife Marisa about 8 years ago). David then talks about the new policies—and what we can do to bear, mourn, and comfort each other given these difficult circumstances. David then answers questions (Resources/support groups, Should I come out?, Honoring personal revelation, etc). If you want to gain insight into someone (or yourself) experiencing a gender journey, please listen to David’s story and perspective. He offers powerful insights thanks to a deep understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and a long view of being on the road to discovering divine identity. Thank you, David, for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you. Thank you for all your contributions to our community.

My friend Dr. Kristine Coons (active Latter-day Saint, Internal Medicine Physician, came out to her wife in 2014, was on episode 699) joins us to share her journey/insights. Kristine brings a unique and needed perspective with her medical expertise in understanding gender dysphoria and the nuance of defining gender/biological sex—along with her own experience being transgender. Kristine also talks about how the new transgender policies negatively impact her (and many other transgender Latter-day Saints) causing her to feel demeaned and a second-class citizen—something Kristine doesn’t feel in the other circles where Kristine serves. If you are transgender—of are looking for insights to better support/mourn with our transgender friends—our hope is Kristine’s story will help you. Thank you, Kristine, for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Links: Kristine’s PowerPoint: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kg25yhqw5e0gqh7zf95bd/Listen-Learn-and-Love-Podcast-9-19-2024-Kristine-Coons-Podcast-Link.pdf?rlke

Guest Host: Tonya Miller Exponent II has played an essential role in creating a shared, safe space for women and gender minorities connected to the Church to explore and express the impacts of "isms" in Church culture. It began in the Boston area as a quarterly newspaper in 1974 by friends who had met and worked on projects together in the Relief Society, and today it continues to provide that space, both physically and digitally. For example, when Exponent II was first created, the idea that someone might adhere to gospel principles and Church policies AND feminism was incredibly radical. Katie and Heather have undertaken a Herculean task in creating this commemoration of Exponent II's founding in their new book, Fifty Years of Exponent II, that includes the history of the organization and an anthology of selected works from the quarterly publication and blog. Heather and Katie describe the rich content of this compilation and share examples from their book that shed light on some of the challenges inher