Listen, Learn & Love Hosted By Richard Ostler

My friend Christina Judd (married mother of three, active LDS) joins us to talk about her new book “All We Can Do: A Fresh View of God, Ourselves, and the World”. Christina talks about “the bottom falling out of her life” even though she was doing all the right things as a Latter-day Saint. She talks about having to develop new, more sustainable spiritual tools versus her earlier “check-list” approach. She talks about accepting President Nelson’s challenge to study the scriptures, looking for references to Christ and “Hear Him.” Christina talks about how the scriptures gave her new insights to be honest, authentic, and vulnerable in our prayers. She talks about loving Heavenly Parents and a Savior who are always there to help us and complete us. I was so moved listening to Christina and her personal story of finding hope, peace, and a new framework for moving forward as a Latter-day Saint. I am so glad she put this together in a new book, to help all of us find and come closer to Jesus Chris

My friends Dr. Kristine Coons (Internal Medicine Physician, RM) and her wife Laura (mother of four, BYU grad) join us from Hawaii where they are celebrating their 20th wedding anniversary to share their remarkable story. Kristine talks about her long-term gender dysphoria and coming out her wife in 2014. They talk about their “lifeline” of communication and the gospel to help them stay committed in their marriage and to navigate this road. Laura talks about supporting her wife as she transitioned and saw first-hand their improvement in her life. They both talk about how they are and continue to be soulmates. Their story is a beautiful love story. Kristine talks about digging into the science of gender dysphoria and discovering through genetics that she has congenital hypogonadotripic hypogonadism (CHH) and how they helps explain how she feels. Kristine also shares her suicidal plans and how she got help (including calling the suicide crisis line) and how she is now in a much better place. This

My friend Jessi Duncan (married mother of four, wife of Bradon Duncan Episode 687, lives in Arkansas, court appointed advocate for foster children, RM) joins us to share her story. Jessi talks about her journey as a black Latter-day Saint and the racism that is still present in church culture and broader society. She gives specific examples, how we need to own/teach our past to “understand the darkness”, and ways we can do better. She talks about how this is part of President Nelson’s charge to “to lead out in abandoning attitudes and actions of prejudice.” Jessi also talks about being the straight partner in a mixed-orientation marriage (he husband Bradon is gay and came out to her after 13 years of marriage in 2020). She talks about the pain of her road and the ministering principle of “ongoing conversations” of these important and tender topics. She talks about her Bishop and Stake President (very helpful). Jessi has some “mic drop” comments like: Listening is how we keep the second gr

My dear friend (and former YSA) Tyler Shaw (RM, active Latter-day Saint, works for the Church) joins us to share his unexpected life reality of being single. Tyler talks about returning from his mission and believed his life plan was to get married around age 24-25, have children, and then be done having children around age 30. Well, that is not how life is turning out for Tyler. Tyler talks about how he is managing a life different than he expected. It is a story of courage, faith, and temple attendance to see the big picture. It is also a story of not looking backwards with regret or the unhealthy road of “what is wrong with me”. If your life has unexpected twists and turns and it not exactly as you imaged it in your younger years, Tyler’s story will help you. Tyler has this ability to create grace for ourselves, continue to work to improve, and temple attendance to be reminded of the big picture to find peace and perspective in our current journey. Honored to have you on the podcast Tyler.

My friend Chris Rich (married mother of three, husband and all three children stepped away from the Church, grew up in SLC, lives in Western Massachusetts, professional life coach) joins us to share her story. Chris talks learning to process the emotions (worried, angry, disappointment, resentment, and grief) of having family members leave the church and learning how to get through those emotions to find peace. Chris talks about the constant thought of “this isn’t what I signed up for” but learning to get past that perspective into a more healthy and sustainable mindset. Chris talks about her efforts to get her husband back to church—but then deciding “my job is to love, Jesus job is to save”. She talks about moving beyond “the only way to be happy is if my husband comes back to church.” Chris also talks about “clean pain” and “dirty pain” and how dirty pain can result in getting stuck (like a hamster wheel) and how to move beyond that pain. Chris talks about loving and supporting her family now.

My dear friends Matt and Heather Robertson (married 30 years, three children) join us to share their story of family unity, love, and respect for all family members in the various Church paths they are walking. Matt and Heather talk about Matt’s long journey which eventually led to Matt no longer participating in the Church and then resigning in October 2022. Matt and Heather (who still attends and holds a calling) talk about how they learned to talk about difficult subjects, listen, hold space for different perspectives/conclusions/experiences, and be united in their love for each other and their children. It is a beautiful love story based on principles of love, respect, communication, and grace. Heather talks about how her dreams/hopes for her family changed as her husband and all three children (two of which are LGBTQ) have stepped away from the church—and how she finds peace and hope. They talk about “let heaven take care of heaven, we will have no empty chairs now”. Matt talks about a wonder

This episode is the launch of my new book called “Listen, Learn and Love: Building the Good Ship Zion”. The “Good Ship Zion” represents The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and all the good it can bring into our lives. But not everyone feels welcome and secure in the boat. Instead of putting the responsibility on others to get comfortable—or to figuratively stop rocking the boat—we can all work in our circles of influence to improve the Good Ship Zion for everyone, as we journey together to the safe harbor of God’s presence. Chapters: Loving members who are “foyer sitters” Is it okay to turn down a calling? Ministering to those with church-generated pain or trauma How should we treat those who leave the Church? Supporting members dealing with death Better support for single Latter-day Saints Supporting couples in their decisions about children. Much of the content of the book are Latter-day Saints sharing these perspectives. They are some of my heroes. I encourage everyone to read the book

My friend Adam Maughan (from Avon Utah, Indy RM, not active in the Church, conversion therapy survivor) joins us to bravely share his story. Adam starts with realizing he was attracted to men prior to his mission but believed exercising his faith through increased religious behaviors would make him straight and acceptable to God. However once on his mission, it became apparent to Adam that his feelings for men had not gone away. He felt that God was displeased with him, and that his sexuality was to blame for difficulties he and his companions faced in their work. That false conclusion (along with the reality of being gay) led Adam to a dark spot resulting in coming home from his mission to a loving and supportive family. Adam talks about how his road got darker after difficult church experiences, conversion therapy, and missing the community/safety of Church. That led Adam to suicidal ideation/plans resulting in an inpatient stay at UNI at the University of Utah. This experience became a turning poi

Episode 692: Brian Pedersen, Gay Former Latter-day Saint, Atheist Turned Christian by Richard Ostler

Our family friend Zach Tucker (age 26, Russia RM, University of Utah Finance Grad, Current MBA Student at University of Minnesota) joins us to share his story. Zach (who is no longer active in the Church and plans to marry a man) shares his journey to accept his sexual orientation (mostly after his mission) and eventually come out to family and friends (lots of love and support). Zach talks in-depth about coming out to others (a close *girlfriend*) and then his family (via a group video) which led to a dinner around his mother Pam’s table. Zach talks about the love, good questions, and family support he received that night (which continues today). Zach talks about supporting his active LDS mother Pam as she finds joy in the Church and the family's love and support as Zach moves forward in the path he feels is best for him. Zach talks about his family’s unity and love—even with differences. It is a beautiful family love story that follows the principle taught by Elder Quentin Cook in his October 20

My friend Christi Davis (married mother of seven, certified life coach, author, podcaster, lives in Gilbert Arizona) join us to talk about her new book called “The Power of a Faithful Mother: Parenting in the Latter Days with a Faith-Filled Mindset. Christi shares some of her own story including her husband Jeff stepping away from the Church and how they worked to maintain a strong and healthy marriage (Jeff has since returned to the Church). So many wonderful principles and insights to maintain a strong marriage with different beliefs. Christi also talks about having children who are no longer participating in the church and the advice she gives her clients to help ease their pain, find peace today and hope for tomorrow, not feel like a failure, and not compare outcomes to other Latter-day Saint families. I wrote down so many unique and helpful insights from Christi and she brings her own story, clinical training, and gospel insights to help others. I encourage everyone to listen to this podca

My friend Dan Neumann (Pediatrician, age 36, married father of 2, RM, lives in Roy Utah, no longer active in the church) joins us to share his powerful story. Dan talks about growing up in Elgin, IL, being very active in the Church, and knowing he was attracted to boys — but always expecting it would go away. Dan talks about silently suffering during these years with depression and suicidal ideation, while trying to compensate by being an overachiever. Dan talks about how, because of his same sex attractions, his relationship with God struggled greatly. He felt that God is “not pleased with me”, that he “never could measure up”, that “God is mad at me”, and that he “never felt acceptable to God." Dan asks, “if I hate who I am, how can God love who I am?” These are sobering insights into how the things we say about queer people deeply affect how they feel about themselves as well as how they believe God must feel about them. Dan talks about the work he is doing to take away shame, to be honest and authenti

My friend Braden Duncan (married father of 4, Active LDS, Therapist, Lives in Arkansas, age 40) joins us the share his remarkable story. Braden talks about growing up in Midway Utah and coming out to his Bishop (good experience and the good advice he received). Braden then talks about the “wise counsel” he wishes he been given before entering into his mixed-orientation marriage to his wife Jessi. He talks about how not talking about it before they married took away Jessi’s right to make a more informed decision. Braden and Jessi are now working hard to increase the strength and health of their marriage. Braden talks about his OCD and how this was more of a coping mechanism to have control while not addressing to the core which was his sexuality. In one of the most moving segments of any podcast, Braden shares what he has learned about the character of God and Jesus and their “passionate love”, “complete trust, and “underserved forgiveness”. The God that Braden describes is the God that I believe

In this episode, I do a solo podcast for Latter-day Saints who want to better support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints in their area of influence. Links: Stockton Powers Memorial Scholarship: www.standingforstockton.com/ Elder Rasband Quote: www.thechurchnews.com/2021/9/1/23218781/elder-rasband-finding-answers-to-questions-california-institute-devotional Link to Books: listenlearnandlove.org/books Steve Young Book: www.amazon.com/dp/1639930310 Facebook Group Ministering Resources to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Chapter on Pride (Chapter 5, False Statement 9): listenlearnandlove.org/embracing-lgbtq-latterday-saints

My friends Lila and Gina Ellsworth join us to share their story. Lila (Film major at the University of Utah, plays on the women’s hockey team, from Gilbert AZ) shares her journey trying to understand her sexual orientation—a journey that started in middle school. Lila talks about praying on how to navigate this road, turning to podcasts to hear other stories, coming out to a friend and then her mother Gina. She also shares her original journal entries to help us understand her road to love and accept herself. Lila talks about all the pain and shame for her feelings—feelings she has no control over and how others helped her feel normal. Lila talks about coming out to her mother and how her mother’s loves and supports Lila—and her heart of love seeing “all the pain Lila is feeling.” Gina shares the suicidal feelings that Lila was experiencing and her heartache and love for her. Lila then talks about a coming out to her dad Matt and his support and then extended family (with her seminary teache

My friend Edward Leavitt (mid-30’s, lives and works in Saint George Utah, RM, Recently Out) joins us to bravely share his story. Edward talks about growing up in Southern Utah and his journey to figure out his sexual orientation after not being able to make things work with a woman following his mission. Edwards talks about dark days filled with shame, self-harm, suicidal ideation, and hating himself. Edward talks about his relationship with his Heavenly Father and Jesus and how that allowed him to accept himself and conclude that his is loved and his life is worth living and “choosing to stay.” Edwards also talks about helping things along the way that have him hope and support. Edward bravely talks about finding out he is HIV positive and how that news led him to come out to his family (via a text he reads on the podcast) and his families support (including a text Edwards reads from his Dad on the podcast). It is a powerful family love story of coming together to love and support each other. E

My friend Sue Robbins (in her 60’s, military career, moved to Utah 2004) joins us to share her story. Sue talks about knowing at a young age something was different about her—and while those feelings existed there was no understanding in society about how she felt. Sue talks about gradually coming out to herself and others and “transitioned to living life authentically as a woman in 2014.” Sue then talks about her bridge building work in Utah (on various boards and organizations) to bring more understanding of and support to transgender people—including her work with our state legislature. Sue also talks about how being transgender is not a mental illness but a medical issue and should be treated as such (just like other medical issues like a broken arm or illness). Sue talks about the role of therapists and principles to find the right one to help someone who is transgender. Sue is a steady voice in this space and has been on this road for a long time. She has chosen to stay away from the vitrio

My friend Julie Rose joins us to talk about BYUradio’s show (and now podcast) called “Top of Mind”. It is a production that talks about tough topics (such as politics, social issues) in a nuanced, respectful way. The show is not out to change your mind—but to “lower the temperature” and model how to talk about important subjects to keep us unified as Latter-day Saints. Julie (a season journalism veteran with over has a 20+-year of work—including stints in California and Charlotte, NC) brings her thoughtful voice to “Top of Mind” to help us be curious, informed, engaged, and willing to learn. Julie also shares some of her own story as a Latter-day Saint (in her late 40s, never married, serving as the YW president in her ward) and what she does to stay engaged in the Church and what we can do to help everyone feel a sense of belonging. I am deeply moved by the efforts of Julie, and everyone involved in the “Top of Mind” podcast and encourage everyone to check it out. Not only are the topics excellent

My friends, this is one of the most unique and powerful podcasts we’ve ever done. I encourage ward councils, local leaders, and families to listen to this podcast to better understand how to love and support our LGBTQ neighbors and friends—and really anyone different than us. Dan Link, Kristin Sokol, and Miki Eberhart join in this episode to share a remarkable story of a ward family who learn to love and then truly show up for two gay dads in their very homogenous Herriman neighborhood. It’s a story of love, tragedy and how the power of friendship and the spirit of fellowship moved everyone closer to the Savior. Dan talks about growing up in the Church, serving a mission (in the 70’s), but never feeling accepted or normal as a gay Latter-day Saint. He shares his story about finding the love of his life in Ryan and building a life and family together. Hear their story about being invited to the Ward Trunk-or-Treat in Herriman, Utah. This event, led to Dan and Ryan being curious about what attending ch

In one of our most moving episodes, my friend Tiffany joins us to share her story for the first time on a public platform. Tiffany talks about her extremely difficult journey to find joy in the Church and in her life throughout many life events that made her question herself, her faith, and even a belief in God. She discusses some of the traumatic events in her life, including multiple sexual assaults, racism, generational trauma, homelessness and alcoholism that broke her spirit and any faith in the Church, the priesthood and leaders. A huge advocate of therapy, Tiffany tells how beloved therapists helped her come to terms with her past and helped her look forward to an unlimited future and learn how to love herself as God does. Through therapy, beloved friends (especially queer ones- in and out of the Church), trusted church members and life changing missionaries, Tiffany has now been able to find hope, love and acceptance in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Tiffany also talks of what can only be des