Listen, Learn & Love Hosted By Richard Ostler

My friends Brandon and Elizabeth Cardenaz (mid 30s, active LDS, married 12 years, 4 children with twins on the way) join us to share their story. Brandon talks about growing up in conservative communities with unkind and unhelpful things said about gay people and learning to separate that from the gospel of Jesus Christ. Brandon talks about how there were really no resources for a gay Latter-day Saint and doing the best he could to make his way forward concurrent with feelings a deep shame for his sexual orientation. Brandon talks about his decision to serve a mission and his deep testimony of our restored Church. Brandon talks about returning how from his mission and dating women. Brandon talks about coming out to his girlfriend (now his wife Elizabeth) as gay and her prayer to Heavenly Father on if she should marry Brandon. Elizabeth shares her answer to prayer to marry Brandon. Brandon and talk about an “intervention” to call off their marriage—the day before their temple marriage—as some fami

My friend @ashley.c.dyer (active LDS RM, nurse, author, living in Boston) joins us to talk about her new book called “Women at the Well: Mini Devotionals for Women of Faith” that covers a range of important questions, like: - Am I truly enough just as I am? - Is there a way to make scripture study more fun? - How do I navigate a faith crisis? - What is grace? - Is it possible to share the gospel without feeling awkward? - How do I feel the Lord’s love in times of trial? Ashley shares some of her own story growing through “faith transformations” and principles to help others walking this beautiful road. She also talks about her love of and support for our LGBTQ friends including her cousin Matt Easton. She shared her experience visiting Matt before DC Pride and then finding herself in the Grand Marshall car with Matt and feeling the “most unconditional love (she) had ever experienced.” I was deeply moved listening to Ashley—her maturity, her service in our world, her new book, her ability to lift others,

My friend Dr. Brian Willoughby (PhD in Family Social Science from University of Minnesota, LDS Convert, Noted Researcher and BYU Professor) joins us to talk about understanding and solving porn use. Dr. Willoughby (a frequent speaker on this subject) talks about what the research is teaching us about porn use and insights/principles to solve it. This is a unique podcast on this subject because Dr. Willoughby brings understanding from his own research (and other research) to better understand this important subject and practical principles/insights to end porn use. If you are working to understand and solve your own porn use, please listen to this podcast. It will help you. And if you are a parent or local leader desiring better tools to help others, this podcast will help you. I wish I had heard this podcast many years ago—before being a parent or before church assignments. Thank you, Dr. Willoughby, for your needed work in our community. Links: Dr. Willoughby BYU Web Site: https://famil

My friend Shannon Sears (age 51, out in 2022, father of three, lifelong church member with decades of church service, divorced, no longer active LDS) joins us to share his story. Shannon hopes that sharing his story will “help younger queer people see themselves as God sees them.” Shannon talks about how he felt not only broken, but “irreparably broken” and how he “never really thought of himself as gay—just terribly flawed”. Shannon shares 35 years of feeling this way (from being a young teen until the age of 50) and the immense and inescapable shame he felt for being gay (even though he was trying to be perfectly obedient). Shannon talks about how the shame kept him from feeling joy and peace in his life and falsely believed that God couldn’t love him. Shannon talks about feeling suicidal and close to acting on that plan—but praying to God and asking how God felt about him and receiving a powerful answer “I love you. I never intended to fix you. You are not broken. They may not want you, but yo

My friend Jessop Oliver (age 25, starting a Master’s Program at Duke, Active LDS, RM, plans to marry a man) joins us to share his story. Jessop talks about growing up in Davis County (oldest of three) in a solid and loving family. Jessop bravely shares how porn use started out of curiosity because of his same-sex attraction. Jessop talks about being “proud of overcoming porn but lost with his sexuality” during his high school years. Jessop talks about how his “gay panic” led him to be a people pleaser, then later an overachiever, thinking he “couldn’t be rejected if I’m good at everything.” Jessop talks about his mission to Chile (great experience) and the spiritual foundation it gave him. Jessop talks about starting at Utah State and realizing he still had same-sex attraction and bravely opening up to his YSA Bishop (great experience). He talks about how this Bishop “loved me when I couldn’t love myself”. Jessop talks about dating women (short-lived relationships) and being faced with the reality of

My friend Laurel Greathouse (RM, same-gender attraction, early 30s) joins us to share her story. Laurel talks about her decision to serve a mission (San Diego, California) and coming home twice for health reasons. She shares what was helpful and not helpful as an early release missionary. Laurel then talks about leaving the Church and dating women for about 4 years. She then talks about spiritual impressions and people showing pure love that led her to reconnect with God, her true hopes and the Church. It is a remarkable story. If you are wondering if there is a way back for you—or if you are wondering about better insights to help a friend or family member—Laurel’s story will help you. Thank you for being on the podcast Laurel. You are very brave and courageous to share your story. You story will help so many! Links: Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints Facebook Group facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Book: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: Deseret Book: deseretb

Richelle begins by sharing some of the observations of her childhood and how these no doubt trying experiences helped to shape her life and strengthen her personal testimony as well as develop a strong relationship with the Savior—her experience and her journey have helped her to just “trust in the Lord” seek to find joy in your life and accept that all will be made right in the end. Richelle shares how she came to know that her long held feelings needed not be a source of shame and that embracing her gender dysphoria only fully surfaced after the unraveling of her marriage of 25 years. She talks about the peace and joy she feels being honest about her gender identity and helps us better understand how to support her and others on their unique path. She talks about attending her local ward and regaining trust with her priesthood leaders as everyone tries to do their best to love and support her—including some very positive experiences with her relief society sisters. Richelle talks about how some voices

My friend Dr. Chelom Leavitt (JD from BYU Law School; Masters in Marriage, Family and Human Development BYU; PhD in Human Development and Family Studies Penn State) joins us to talk about research in sexual function, sexual mindfulness and the connection between sex and relationship well-being. Dr Leavitt—who teaches on this subject in the BYU School of Family Life and is a married mother of nine—talks about the research and this subject and how to teach it to improve sexual mindfullness in marriage—resulting in stronger marriages. She also talks about how it is Satan (not our Heavenly Father) that introduces shame into this subject and how/why talking about it is important in our marriages and talking about sex with our children. I learned so much listening to Dr. Leavitt—principles and insights I wish I had heard earlier in my life which would have given me better tools as a husband, father, and in my YSA service. Dr. Leavitt is doing groundbreaking work in our community and beyond and I encourag

My friend Andrew White (age 29, finishing up dental school, living in the Kansas City area) starts with knowing he was attracted to the same gender around age 5 and recognizing he was gay around 15. Andrew talks about the events that led him to join the Church at age 15 (including a powerful dream) and then doing everything to ‘become straight’ including being active in the Church (becoming an Elder, going to BYU, temple endowment, and serving a mission)—all with the hope of “rewarded with being straight” and also wanting to help others feel the love of God and our Savior. Andrew then talks about the super difficult and painful church experiences on his mission and then at BYU which causes so much pain/trauma that Andrew felt his only path to healing was to resign from the Church in 2016. The things Andrew experienced on his mission and BYU are heartbreaking—church generated trauma is real for some members of our Church and something I’ve learned to validate even if I haven’t experienced it directly.

My friend Nigel Bull (who joined the Church at age 16, left, rebaptized at age 40, currently not active) joins us to share some of his story (complicated at times) as a gay Latter-day Saint. Nigel takes us back to like what it was to be gay in the '80's in the Church. Some of his story is painful to hear--but it helps us understand the realities of the road Nigel was walking. Nigel also shares his health challenges which led to being in a wheel chair starting in his late '20s and also being HIV positive and the unknows about that illness in the '80s. Nigel, who was suicidal at times, gives advice for others who are thinking of suicide to reach out (in the United States call/text/chat 988) and also "love yourself and believe in yourself." Nigel is one of my heroes for his courage to do his best to navigate being a Latter-day Saint and gay during a time with less understanding and support. You are a good man Nigel. I'm glad you are alive and all the people you have helped along the way. Glad to have you o

My friends Bekki Hood and Emily Cushing joins us to talk about their new book (published by Deseret Book in May 2023) about 23 remarkable Latter-day Saint women called “She Did: Ordinary Women, Extraordinary Faith.” Bekki and Emily share some of their own stories (education, careers) and the reasons for writing this book—which highlights the stories of 23 women. Most of these women are largely unknown to a broad Latter-say Saint audience—but typify the faithfulness of millions of Latter-day Saint women. Hearing their stories helps us develop courage and faith—and better vision to write our own stories. A few of the woman may be familiar to readers such as Aurelia Spencer Rogers (founded the Primary program); Irene Corbett (died on the Titanic, and subject of Elder Cook’s “The Songs They Could Not Sign 2011 Conference Talk); and Chieko Okazaki (former Relief Society General Presidency). The book shares more about these remarkable women including interviews with surviving family members. I encour

My friend Dan McClellan (married father of three, active LDS, @maklelan) joins us to share his story how his long academic road (two masters and a PhD) has opened unexpected doors for him to bring his biblical expertise and pastoral heart to bless others. Dan talks about how scripture should not be weaponized and how good scholarship helps us reduce vitriol and bring us together. Dan shares how he started a TikTok account in 2021 and how his work has grown to a major social presence on all platforms. Dan talks about how we should also use scripture teachings to help the marginalized and how they do not support identity politics. I was deeply moved listening to Dan and his fact based/scriptural approach to help us to better. Thank you, Dan, for being on the podcast and for your needed voice in our community and beyond. Links: TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@maklelan Instagram: @maklelan Twitter: @maklelan Facebook: www.facebook.com/daniel.o.mcclellan YouTube: www.youtube.com/@maklelan Podcast (D

My friend Dr. Julia Bernards (LDS married mother of 4, PhD from BYU, LMFT) joins us to talk about her 2022 BYU Dissertation called “This Whole Journey was Sacred: Latter-day Saint Parents’ Process in Coming to Accept a Transgender Child.” In her groundbreaking dissertation Julia shares the key findings of the research as well as a brief history of gender diversity, key terms to understand, perspectives on identity, grief and resiliency, and her research methodology (analyzing data from over a hundred LDS parents with a transgender child). She includes lots of quotes from parents as well as recommendations for clinicians. Julia's findings focus on the facets and stages of the family journey to love, accept and support a transgender child leading to peace and a strong family relationship. It is a journey that is not linear; it is unique to each family—but Julia frames this up in a way that provides hope, perspective, and principles to navigate this road. This is not just research for Julia as Julia and

My friend Marci McPhee (active LDS, now single, mother of six, grandmother of sixteen, writer & editor) joins us to talk about life lessons learned since joining the Church at age 16, being single after two temple marriages (with a cancellation of sealing between), raising a stepfamily in a duplex, her career in higher education, and now editor to folks like Steve Young, Fatimah Salleh, David Ostler, & two of my three books. Marci is dear personal friend, remarkable person, and gifted editor. Her personal story is powerful. It is one of the finest examples of “write your own story with Christ.” I encourage everyone to listen to Marci’s podcast—it will help you find peace, hope, and perspective in your life. You can connect with Marci at marcimcpheewriter.com

My friend Ashly Stone (married mother of two) joins us to share her remarkable journey of battling additions (which included heroin and jail time) and her journey to recovery. It is a remarkable story of courage, faith and “surrendering”. A key part of Ashly’s recover was her path to reconnect with the Church and access the healing power and hope of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Ashly shares powerful concepts like “I decided to create the person I wanted to be”, and “let your past empower you”. Ashly’s personal story is powerful and give others hope that they can pull out of very difficult and sometimes near hopeless situations. For more on Ashly’s story, check out the first episode on her podcast and also her episode on the All-In podcast. Ashly then talks about the podcast she hosts and founded called “Come Back Podcast” which is stories of people who have returned to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (we production help from her friend Lauren Rose). This remarkable podcast,

My friends Jacob Rugh, Michael Wood and Grace Soelberg (all from the Department of Sociology at BYU) join us to talk about their new peer-reviewed and scholarly published research to better understanding the experience of Black Latter-day Saints. The research article is called “Making Space Behind the Veil: Black Agency within a Predominantly White Religion” in the Journal of Scientific Study of Religion (see show notes to access the article). In the podcast Jacob, Michael and Grace give powerful insights and examples to better understand the experience of Black Latter-day Saints—including the concept of W.E.B. Du Bois’s concept of ‘twoness.’ They also talk about why they embarked on this groundbreaking research effort and their hopes on how the findings can help improve the experience and better value the contributions of Black Latter-day Saints. I was so moved listening to these three authors. The principles and insights help me new tools and perspectives to help better create Zion, see and addr

My friend Melissa Dalton-Bradford (married mother of four raised over 30 years across nine countries; author of books, articles and poetry; public speaker; MA in Comparative Literature from BYU; co-founder of two non-profits—TSOSrefugees and Mormon Women for Ethical Government), joins us during her trip from her home in Germany to Utah to talk about loss, grief, and living onward. That’s actually the title of one of her books: On Loss and Living Onward: Collected Voices for the Grieving and Those Who Would Mourn With Them. She spoke freely about her family’s experience with traumatic loss, and took us through some vital points from her writing. The book takes readers through the death of her son Parker in a drowning accident in 2007 at age 18 and her family’s efforts at finding hope, healing, and peace. The book in organized in five sections: Life at Death; Love at Death; Living After Death; Learning From Death; and Life, Love and Light Over Death. Melissa is open, raw, honest, vulnerable, and courag

My friends Don and Jenny Hong (married parents of 4) and their gay son Isaac (age 30, RM, has boyfriend) join us to share their family story. Isaac starts with his story of coming out to his parents about 8 years ago following his successful mission and doing everything he knew to be straight. Jenny and Don then share their journey to love and support their gay son and his long-term boyfriend Brock. It’s been a journey for the Hong family with some ups and downs—but a beautiful family love story with a foundation in love, curiosity, listening and honest communication. Don (a former Bishop) then shares a talk he gave (that has since gone viral) called "The Gift of Doubt: How doubt and a gay son brought me closer to God." It is a powerful talk based on Brother Jared Halverson’s stages of faith. Don’s talk hits on a key need in our Church community to normalize doubt and learn to develop new models and perspectives to make our way forward as Latter-day Saints. If you are a parent of a queer c

My friend Patrick Risk (who was most recently on Episode 297) joins us to talk about his new book “One Day at a Time: Daily Hope for Those Navigating Their Own Path of Healing.” Patrick bravely shares his own life story (including being a survival of sexual abuse, having an eating disorder, and being gay) to bring practical advice and insights for those looking to find peace, healing, and hope. Patrick talks about going from “what if to what now” and going from “victim to victor.” If you are dealing with the complexities of a difficult mortal world and want an authentic voice to give you principles to find peace and hope, please listen to this podcast and read Patricks’ powerful book. Patrick will help you feel God’s love, understand that you are not alone, and that you are strong enough to overcome any obstacles that you face. Thank you, Patrick, for being on the podcast and for your remarkable life ministry to bless others. You are a great man. Links: Patrick’s book on Amazon: https://www.a

My friend Jon Rogers (Washington DC RM, recently divorced, attending church, has boyfriend) joins us to share his story. Jon talks about his foundational principles of faith, trust, and patience to guide his life. Jon talks about knowing he was gay but never accepting or believing his he was gay until a deeply spiritual experience about two years ago that helped to better understand how our Heavenly Father feels about him. That led Jon to come out to his wife and then his parents and his two teenage daughters. Jon talks about why his marriage ultimately ended and how he is making his way forward “doing the best I can.” Jon talks about why he continues to attend church (often with his boyfriend Nate), the importance of personal revelation, and grace. I’m grateful for Jon’s courage to share his story. Hearing his story helps us better understand and support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and also gives LGBTQ Latter-day Saints principles and perspectives as they write their story. Thank you, Jon, for b