Listen, Learn & Love Hosted By Richard Ostler

My friend Dr. Matthew Wickman (BYU Professor of English and Founding Director, Emeritus, of the BYU Humanities Center) joins us to talk about his new book called “Life to the Whole Being, The Spiritual Memoir of a Literature Professor”. The great book (published by the BYU Maxwell Institute) is available at: https://www.amazon.com/Life-Whole-Being-Spiritual-Literature/dp/0842500618/ In the podcast, Dr. Wickman tells us why he wrote the book, who is hopes will read it and how he hopes it will help readers. If you are in a faith crisis, wondering where God is in the complexities of mortality, want to develop more faith and/or want better tools to help others, this book/podcast will help you. If you have loved ones no longer in the Church, this podcast will help you feel more peace. I was deeply moved during the podcast with Dr. Wickman’s wonderful insights and soft heart. I feel more peace and have more hope. Thank you, Matt, for being on the podcast and your great and needed work in our faith c

My friend Renee Davis (married mother of two, CPA, lives in Knoxville TN) joins us to share her story. Renee starts with her remarkable conversation story into the Church about 30 years ago—with many people in her life against her decision. Renee also talks about her Patriarchal blessing helping her to better understand her future. Renee shares being kind and supportive to gay people in her life and their impact for good in society and in her life. At the end of the podcast, she shares a deeply moving song her friend Levi wrote called “Stained Glass Window”. Renee has felt like a “fringe member” and is also someone who at times is a “foyer sitter”. But as we listen to Renee’s story, I believe we are hearing from someone deeply committed to the Gospel and being like Jesus. If you feel like a “fringe member” who may not belong at Church, please listen to Renee’s story. It will help you. And if you want to do a better job of helping everyone feel welcome, needed, and have a sense of belonging

My friend Gene Grant (late 60s, served two missions, married father of four, former Mayor, Attorney ) shares his sometimes-painful journey as a liberal Latter-day Saint. Gene has the long view of being on this road and has seen a lot of positive change and improvements. He has also had some very difficult experiences—including the threat (after his second mission) of having his temple privileges removed. If you are a liberal Latter-day Saint looking for tools, perspectives, and reasons to stay in the Church—this podcast will help you. And if you are a conservative leader/member looking to build Zion where we are stronger using our diversity to bless and lift others, this podcast will help you. This is not a podcast to change your political views—rather Gene sharing his 5 decades of experience to help us better love, see and support each other as Latter-day Saints working to Gather Israel and build Zion. Thank you, Gene, for being on the podcast. Your story personally blessed and help me and wi

My friend Scott Baldwin (BYU Professor, Clinical Psychology, Married Father of 5) shares the experience of his mission in 1997 ending after 8 days. Scott talks about the shame and sadness he felt leaving the MTC and not completing a mission. Now 25 years from that experience, Scott shares insights, principles, and perspectives to help other early-release missionaries feel hope in the moment and for their future. Scott’s wife Autumn joins us to share why she married Scott and loves this part of his journey because of the his gifts and Christlike attributes to help others. If you are an early-release missionary, this podcast will help you as Scott has the long-view of this road. And if you are a local leader, parent or friend, please listen to this podcast to help the current (or future) early-release missionaries in your circle. Thank you, Scott, for sharing your story—along with your academic and clinical insights into this space. Combining all those perspectives helps us better support early-release

My friend Deeanna (divorced, mother of 4, active LDS) joins us to share growing up in a rural community in the 1990s with her dear best friend/boyfriend Ryan. It is a beautiful high school romance—but one that Ryan seemed to know wouldn’t work long-term and Deeanna came to understand and accept. Deeanna talks about Ryan’s support during High School and her mission—but how they started to separate when Ryan stepped away from the Church. Deeanna talks about learning Ryan was gay and how their relationship stayed strong as they got on with their respective lives. It is a beautiful love story—one that is very different than Deeanna envisioned in High School. Deeanna shares her Facebook post when she learned that Ryan died. The podcast concludes with Deeanna’s talk at Ryan's graveside service. Thank you, Deeanna, for being on the podcast. Your story honors Ryan and helps bring us together as the same human family. ** Please Check Out My LGBTQ Book At: ** Deseret Book: www.deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love

My friend Justin Traasdahl (Ukraine RM, BYU Grad) joins us to bravely share his story. Justin starts with opening up at age 13 to his parents about possibly being gay which led to a long and painful road with conversion therapy that lasted around 15 years. Justin’s hope in sharing his story helps “change hearts and trajectories”. Around age 29, Justin went to a new LDS therapist who told him “Justin, you know reparative therapy doesn’t work, right?” Justin shares questioning conversion therapy along the way —that this is who he is—but needed to hear this from a different therapist. Justin shares the pain, trauma and betrayal of conversion/reparative therapy and his road to healing and hope. It is a remarkable story of courage. One of the reasons Justin agreed to do this podcast is to help younger queer youth and parents avoid this type of therapy which is still legal in some states. Justin, who is no longer an active Latter-day Saint, talks about his hope for the future that includes sharing

My friend Kathryn Sonntag joins us to talk about her new book called “The Mother Tree: Discovering the Love and Wisdom of Our Divine Mother” (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09XG49WH8/) published by our friends at https://faithmatters.org/. Kathryn (active LDS, mother of two, MLA in landscape architecture and environmental planning) shares her spiritual insights about “The Mother Tree” and the hope, perspective and meaning this brings into her life. I was deeply moved listening to and learning from Kathryn. Her voice and insights are so needing in our community to better create Zion which includes Mother Earth and the Divine Mother. I encourage everyone to listen to this podcast and read Kathryn’s book. Thank you, Kathryn, for being on the podcast. I hope we continue to hear your insights and perspectives—you are a wonderful gift to our faith community to bring more hope, understanding and healing. You can read more about Kathryn at https://www.kathrynknightsonntag.com/

My friend Heidi Bartle (Active LDS, Mother of 5, BYU Grad) shares her story of waves of unexplained sadness which led to a diagnosis of depression and a further diagnosis in 2012 of bipolar. With the encouragement of a therapist, Heidi opened up to her children (ages 5 – 15 at the time) about her mental illness. That helped reduce the shame and sigma and normalized having a mental illness (just like having an allergy or asthma). That led to Heidi to write a groundbreaking children’s book called “When Mommy Feels Sad: A Mother’s Journey Through Depression” which is at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/When-Mommy-Feels-Sad-Depression/dp/1638859787 If you are a parent with a mental illness, Heidi’s book and this podcast will help you. If you have someone in your life with a mental illness, Heidi’s insights will help you. There are so many wonderful segments in the podcast including the ending about deliverance being both a process along the way and a final event. You are one of my new heroes Heid

My friend Joe Horton shares the story of falling in love in 1978 with his wife Ann concurrent with her MS diagnosis. Joe talks about healing blessings, advice to not marry someone with MS, and his personal revelation to marry Ann. It is a beautiful and deeply moving love story. Joe (who was President/CEO of Primary Children’s Hospital from 1994-2007 and currently is Professor in the MHA Program at the David Eccles School of Business) talks about the deep rewards and challenges of the road they jointly walked together. That road included having two children (Matt and Drew), Ann eventually needing a wheelchair, managing providing care, Ann blessing so many, and Ann’s passing on April 15, 2021. You can read Ann’s obituary here: https://www.larkinmortuary.com/obituary/view/margaret-ann-horton-13 Joe’s life is very different than he imagined on the flight home from Rome Italy in 1975 after a successful LDS mission. However, Joe shares how he wouldn’t trade this life for the life he once imagined.

My friend Allison Dayton (Active LDS, Mother of Three Including a Gay Son) joins us to share her latest thoughts on the intersection of being LDS and LGBTQ. Allison has been on this road for 4 decades with her gay brother Preston (who died in 2017) and her gay son Jake (currently at BYU) and has a unique and needed perspective. Allison started Lift and Love (check out liftandlove.org and @liftandlove on IG) which is a support group for LDS parents with LGBTQ kids. It also helps give local leaders more tools to better support LGBTQ youth. Life and Love also has a series of support groups (mentioned in the podcast) that is so needed and expanding. Life and Love is identity supportive and church supportive. I encourage everyone to listen to this podcast and connect with Lift and Love. It will help you as a parent, local leader or LGBTQ member. Thank you, Allison, for your great work. ** Please Check Out My LGBTQ Book At: ** Deseret Book: www.deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love-embracing-lgb

My friend Evie Jimenez (BYU Student, RM, Age 21) joins us to bravely talk about her eating disorder (anorexia nervosa). She discusses personal daily battles with the disorder since her diagnosis at age 11 and the difficulty of those years on a personal, family, and social level. Evie then talks about her road to hope and healing (family support, accepting her disorder, therapy, and the Atonement of Jesus Christ). She offers honest and vulnerable stories about the mental dialogue of her disorder including counting calories in the sacrament bread. Evie is now in recovery. She is looking forward to finishing her education at BYU and a career helping others recover from eating disorders. If you are working to solve an eating disorder or help others, please listen to this podcast. Evie’s story will help you. Thank you Evie for being on the podcast. You are brave and courageous. I was deeply moved hearing your story! ** Please Check Out My New Book (Improving Latter-day Saint Culture; link below)**

My friend Lauren Harrigian (who was on Episode 540) joins us to answer questions and give more insights following her original podcast episode. Thank you, Lauren, for being on the podcast and share more about your journey. You are awesome. ** Please Check Out My LGBTQ Book At: ** Deseret Book: www.deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love-embracing-lgbtq-latter-day-saints Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1462135773 ** Want to develop church-supported LGBTQ activities in your local area? Please join our FB group below ** https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

My friend Koji Aoki (Age 27, RM, Married, Grad School) joins us to talk about his 10+ year journey to understand and then solve his porn use. Koji (who is a long-time family friend) talks about how his porn use started, how it became a habit and then how he stopped using porn to serve a mission (Lima, Peru North). Yes, Koji got clean for his mission but lacked the tools to see and solve the root of his porn use. Koji talks about life after his mission and how porn came back into his life as a copying mechanism which led to immense feelings of shame. Those feelings a shame and depression led to an attempted suicide that allowed Koji to fully open up to his parents and get more help. It also led to direct revelation in a powerful moment of “you are enough”. Koji (who has completed two full iron man triathlons including Kona, HI) talks about connecting with Sara Brewer (https://www.sarabrewer.com/) and the added tools and insights that allowed Koji to end porn use. Koji also talks how he is gratefu

My friend Shawn Tucker (Humanities Professor Elon University, Married Father of 4, Active LDS) joins us to talk about his new book about humility. The book explores qualities like devotion to God, meekness, vulnerability, seeing your weakness, respect, modesty, friendship. The book gives practical insights into what it means to be humble in your relationship with God and with others. I learned so much listening to Shawn’s insights about humility. It helps me see some of my blind spots and want to do better. It helps me find more peace in my life to be normal—and finding joy in being normal. Please check out the book at: https://www.amazon.com/Humility-Practical-Approach-Shawn-Tucker-ebook/dp/B09ML7BQNM Thank you, Dr. Tucker, for being on the podcast and your insights and gifts to help us become a more Zion like people.

My friend Autumn Brooke White bravely shares her 20+ year journey with undiagnosed scrupulosity. Autumn (now in her late 30s) shares the intrusive thoughts about worthiness that have been part of her life since her teenage years. Autumn talks about how she best navigated walking this road alone—not feeling safe to open up to others or realizing this was not a spiritual weakness. Autumn then shares, about two years ago, opening up to others (friends, Bishop) which led to a therapist with an understanding of scrupulosity resulting in an accurate diagnosis and a relatively short path to healing. If you are having thoughts of unworthiness, it may not be a spiritual weakness—it may be scrupulosity (or spiritual OCD) which attacks that is most precious to you. Listening to this podcast will help you. And if you want to be prepared to help others in your circle that have undiagnosed scrupulosity, this podcast will give you tools to see it in others and get them help. No one should live 20 years with un

My friend Nicole Herway (LCSW, Mother of Two, Divorced Survivor of Intimate Partner Abuse, Active LDS) bravely shares her own story to help others. She is not doing this to speak poorly of her former spouse, but to increase knowledge and awareness of abusive patterns and debunk myths. In the podcast Nicole debunks 8 myths using her own story, academic knowledge, and front-line clinical experience. If you feel you might be in an abusive relationship, please listen to this podcast. It will help you. If you suspect someone you love is in an abuse relationship, please listen to this podcast. And if you are a local church leader, please listen as it will give you better tools to help others. Thank you, Nicole, for being on the podcast. I learned so much. I encourage everyone to listen to this powerful episode. Links mentioned in the podcast: Nicole’s web site: https://www.herwaycounseling.com/ Power and Control Wheel and Equality Wheel: https://www.theduluthmodel.org/wheel-gallery/ Sis

My friend Lauren Harrigian (early 30s, living in AZ, Mental Health Therapist) share her journey to transition and then later connect with and join the Church. Lauren talks about why transitioning helped her be her ‘full-self’ leading to more happiness and peace. Lauren then talks about why she joined the Church to find more peace and feel God’s love. She also talks about the love and support she is receiving as a member of the Church in her Ward and Relief Society. This is a great podcast to understanding our transgender friends and how to love/support a transgender Latter-day. It also gives us insights on how we are stronger with our transgender members and how they too a part of the “Gathering of Israel” and help us create Zion. Thank you, Lauren for being on the podcast. You are awesome. ** Please Check Out My LGBTQ Book At: ** Deseret Book: www.deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love-embracing-lgbtq-latter-day-saints Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1462135773 ** Want to develop church-supported

**Trigger Warning: Podcast talks about Suicide. If you are suicidal please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 800-273-8255** My friend Troy Gagon (age 52, Married Father of 7, Active LDS) bravely shares his long journey to understand and solve pornography—including the effectiveness of the ACT (Acceptance, Commitment, Therapy) approach. Troy also talks about his 17-year-old son Terik who died by suicide in Feb 2015 (you can read more about Terik at www.terikgagon.com). Troy talks about how his family is healing and finding hope, things we can do to better support families who have lost on to suicide, and hopeful thoughts to those who are suicidal. If you are working to solve pornography, please listen to this podcast. Troy’s insights will help you. And if you have lost a family member to suicide, Troy’s perspective and gospel insights will help you. You can reach Troy at T.s.gagon@gmail.com or 801-836-5733. Thank you, Troy for your courage to share your story. Respect. ** P

**Trigger Warning: Podcast talks about Suicide. If you are suicidal please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 800-273-8255** My friend Michael Finch bravely shares his story. Michael talks about realizing at BYU that he is gay before his mission, resulting in feelings of “my life is over”. At that time, Michael ignored this realization, and he served a successful mission in New York City speaking Mandarin Chinese. Michael talks about returning home and trying to move forward with his life including coming out as gay (positive experience). However, suicidal ideation (which has been part of Michael’s story since before his mission) continued until Michael’s suicide attempt in March 2021. Michael bravely shares more about that experience, what he has learned and why he decided to openly share about his suicide attempt to help others. A year after his suicide attempt, Michael made this Instagram post in March 2022 (www.instagram.com/p/CbgRYONvJMEG2Y9pKxDA2u7r272D-WqoTy-EZk0/). I

My friend Taylor Niebergall (active LDS, Married Mother of Two) joins us to talk about her podcast focus on building bridges between those in the Church and those who have left the Church. Taylor talks about why she started the podcast, the purpose and her hopes to build more understanding between these two groups of people. You can check out Taylor’s podcast at https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/building-bridges/id1585596531. The article she wrote can be found here, http://the-after-eden-project.com/ and you can follow the Building bridges Facebook page here https://www.facebook.com/Building-Bridges-podcast-101942785569497/ or Taylor’s personal account here https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008387117636 You can also check out my brother David Ostler’s book referenced in the podcast at: https://bridgeslds.com/about-author/ Thank you Taylor for being on the your good work to bring us together as the same human family. ** Check out my book on improving Latter-day Saint Culutre **